Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

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mutsuk
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by mutsuk » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:19 am

Following the teachings of the Phyag-khrid (mid-13th century but the contents are obviously older), Bonpos generally do their 'bum-dgu (900 000) preliminaries in 49 days for those of highest capacities and 100 days for those of lower acumen.

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:27 pm

mutsuk, what do they comprise of?

mutsuk
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by mutsuk » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:03 pm

1) Guru Yoga, 2) meditation on impermanence, 3) 100 syllable mantra, 4) bodhicitta, 5) refuge, 6) mandala offering, 7) 3 essence mantras, 8) body offering, and 9) lineage prayer.

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:14 pm

so do they have 100000 accumulation since 13th century or that part have been introduced later?

on a side note it is above my head how anyone can accomplish such a task in 100 days let alone 49.
i am doing 1200-1300 full prostrations a day and i guess it is close to my limits. if you do short prostrations it is possible to do 4000 a day, still it is a month to finish prostrations only.

mutsuk
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by mutsuk » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:22 pm

yagmort wrote:so do they have 100000 accumulation since 13th century or that part have been introduced later?
it was not introduced later, it clearly predates the Phyag-khrid itself.
on a side note it is above my head how anyone can accomplish such a task in 100 days let alone 49.
i am doing 1200-1300 full prostrations a day and i guess it is close to my limits. if you do short prostrations it is possible to do 4000 a day, still it is a month to finish prostrations only.
They do it fast, sleep 4 hours maximum, don't waste any time at all. What they do is hardcore retreat.

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Cyrus Sterns is of the opinion it is rather late. I am not as certain. For example, Taratnatha mentions doing 100,000 prostastions combined with refuge in this text.

tA ra nA tha , thub bstan dge legs rgya mtsho , tshogs gnyis rgya mtsho , 'jam dbyangs mkhyen rab rgya mtsho . "kha 1) thun mong gi sngon 'gro/." In jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i dpe tshogs/ . TBRC W1PD95746. 20: 35 - 91. khreng tu'u: si khron dpe skrun tshogs pa / si khron mi rigs dpe skrun khang , 2009. http://tbrc.org/link?RID=O1PD95746|O1PD ... $W1PD95746

Taranatha is the late 16th-early 17th century, and he certainly did not invent the idea. I did not investigate whether other prelims had similar numbers assigned.
Thanks Malcom. This is certainly a good lead for sure. I will look more thoroughly. Thanks for the link.
I also explored much of the Drikung Kagyu texts I could find, including Gong Chik, and I didn't seem to find anything codified until around the 17th Century?

Dunno. I don't know why I get on these neurotic tangents, but any how the info is great!
Looks like I erred -- this text was written in the fifteenth rab 'buying, sometime in the nineteenth century.
Indeed! Im glad I found your response! In fact this section of the "jo nang mdo sngags rig pa'i doe tshogs" Appears to be written by a Thubten Gelek Gyatso of the 19th century (1844-1904). Very interesting stuff.

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:56 pm

mutsuk wrote:Following the teachings of the Phyag-khrid (mid-13th century but the contents are obviously older), Bonpos generally do their 'bum-dgu (900 000) preliminaries in 49 days for those of highest capacities and 100 days for those of lower acumen.
Mutsuk,
Can you please provide me a reference. I am unfamiliar with the Phyag-khrid tradition. However, after multiple discussions with Malcom and Heart, I am still inclined to postulate that the actuall accumulations being qualified in numbers, is still a rather late invention. Indeed, may source texts for Ngrodro preliminaries date back to even the 10th century from what I can see! However, the actual implementation of the use of 100,000 repetitions seems to be a much newer invention of say the past 200-300 years.

Can you help me find a source text that is circa 13th century which stipulates these numerical requirements?


Thanks!


PS: there are some people where who still seem to be confused about the nature of this discussion. I am merely trying to understand when the actual numerical accumulations were codified into practice in Tibet. I am not trying to understand the origins of the actual 4 extra-orgniary practices themselves.

Cheers!

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:23 pm

Lay-Man wrote: I am merely trying to understand when the actual numerical accumulations were codified into practice in Tibet.
But why are you trying understand that? Why is it so important for you? Perhaps you could have a talk with your guru and find out what he/she thinks about it?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:55 pm

heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: I am merely trying to understand when the actual numerical accumulations were codified into practice in Tibet.
But why are you trying understand that? Why is it so important for you? Perhaps you could have a talk with your guru and find out what he/she thinks about it?

/magnus
This whole thread is related to the evolution of Ngondro. Why talk about anything really. LOL :twothumbsup:

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:06 am

Lay-Man wrote:...I am not trying to understand the origins of the actual 4 extra-orgniary practices themselves...
hey Lay-Man, why not?) besides 111000 accumulation question i would be glad to know when have prostrations been introduced. from what i understand guru-yoga, Vajrasattva and mandala offering existed in indian period of vajrayana. i would guess prostrations have been a sign of utmost reverence towards spiritual master, but did they ever be a standalone practice of taking refuge? and if not, when did they become one?

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:54 am

Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: I am merely trying to understand when the actual numerical accumulations were codified into practice in Tibet.
But why are you trying understand that? Why is it so important for you? Perhaps you could have a talk with your guru and find out what he/she thinks about it?

/magnus
This whole thread is related to the evolution of Ngondro. Why talk about anything really. LOL :twothumbsup:
There are really no proof of there being any "evolution of the Ngondro", we only got your unsubstantiated claims.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 am

heart wrote:..There are really no proof of there being any "evolution of the Ngondro", we only got your unsubstantiated claims...

please don't visit this thread if you neither interested nor helpful. you didn't provide any "proof" of your own, we only got your unsubstantiated grunt so far.

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:29 am

yagmort wrote:
heart wrote:..There are really no proof of there being any "evolution of the Ngondro", we only got your unsubstantiated claims...

please don't visit this thread if you neither interested nor helpful. you didn't provide any "proof" of your own, we only got your unsubstantiated grunt so far.
It isn't your thread yagmort. I post as I see fit. If you got something else to post than your unsubstantiated claims I am looking forward to it. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:19 am

heart wrote:It isn't your thread yagmort.
It is not. Did i say otherwise?

heart wrote: I post as I see fit.
So do others
heart wrote:If you got something else to post than your unsubstantiated claims I am looking forward to it...
nobody is obliged to proof anything to you. So far the info Lay-May have provided were much more "substantiated" and helpful than your unproven criticism. So let me turn your own words against you. So, if you, magnus, got something else to post than your unsubstantiated claims we are looking forward to it...how about that? ;)

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:24 am

yagmort wrote:
nobody is obliged to proof anything to you. So far the info Lay-May have provided were much more "substantiated" and helpful than your unproven criticism. So let me turn your own words against you. So, if you, magnus, got something else to post than your unsubstantiated claims we are looking forward to it...how about that? ;)
I am not making any claim except that 100.000 isn't considered much in the Tibetan tradition (easy to check) and that the Ngondro in its common form can be found as early as 12th century which is substantiated by both me and Mutsuk. Seriously, I have no idea what you are so upset about?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:05 pm

Yamort,
I guess I could look into the actual codification of Ngondro's 4 extra-ordinary practices at some point, but it don't have much time these days with work and my family! The question about the codification of 100,000 accumulations is a bit easier to bite of an explore because there seems to be a clear historical demarcation of the accumulations being institutionalized by much of the Sarma traditions in the 17/18 centuries...or so. But perhaps one day I can look into the great question of the Ngondro itself!


Heart,
With regards to your position that there is no clear evidence of the "evolution of Ngondro" I would only offer this simple point. Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach on the 4 extra-ordinary practices of Ngondro. In-fact there is no Sutric source for the 4 extra-ordinary practices themselves. As such, we can state empirically that the development and codification of these 4 extra-ordinary practices was in fact an evolution of the Buddha's teachings that took place long after Shakyamuni's death.

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:16 pm

Lay-Man wrote: The question about the codification of 100,000 accumulations is a bit easier to bite of an explore because there seems to be a clear historical demarcation of the accumulations being institutionalized by much of the Sarma traditions in the 17/18 centuries...or so.
Please enlighten us what the "clear historical demarcation of the accumulations being institutionalized by much of the Sarma traditions" is?
Lay-Man wrote: Heart,
With regards to your position that there is no clear evidence of the "evolution of Ngondro" I would only offer this simple point. Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach on the 4 extra-ordinary practices of Ngondro. In-fact there is no Sutric source for the 4 extra-ordinary practices themselves. As such, we can state empirically that the development and codification of these 4 extra-ordinary practices was in fact an evolution of the Buddha's teachings that took place long after Shakyamuni's death.
According to the Shravakayana Buddha didn't teach any part of the Vajrayana. But I think you understand that this is a Vajrayana forum, no?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:31 pm

heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: The question about the codification of 100,000 accumulations is a bit easier to bite of an explore because there seems to be a clear historical demarcation of the accumulations being institutionalized by much of the Sarma traditions in the 17/18 centuries...or so.
Please enlighten us what the "clear historical demarcation of the accumulations being institutionalized by much of the Sarma traditions" is?

I believe that is the very crux of what we have been discussing with Yagmort and Mutsuk and yourself?
Lay-Man wrote: Heart,
With regards to your position that there is no clear evidence of the "evolution of Ngondro" I would only offer this simple point. Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach on the 4 extra-ordinary practices of Ngondro. In-fact there is no Sutric source for the 4 extra-ordinary practices themselves. As such, we can state empirically that the development and codification of these 4 extra-ordinary practices was in fact an evolution of the Buddha's teachings that took place long after Shakyamuni's death.
According to the Shravakayana Buddha didn't teach any part of the Vajrayana. But I think you understand that this is a Vajrayana forum, no?

/magnus
Respectfully I am finding it hard to engage in a dialogue with you about this. It is my experience in this thread that you attempt to refute my notional positions with an argument or contrary position, only to change that position when it is addressed, taking up an all together new position. Its unclear to me what you would like me to say at this point.

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:13 pm

Lay-Man wrote: With regards to your position that there is no clear evidence of the "evolution of Ngondro" I would only offer this simple point. Buddha Shakyamuni did not teach on the 4 extra-ordinary practices of Ngondro. In-fact there is no Sutric source for the 4 extra-ordinary practices themselves.
Why would there be a sūtra source for practices such as Vajrasattva, Maṇḍala and Guru Yoga? The first comes from Yoga Tantra, and the second two sre found in the Guhyasamaja Tantra.

The klong gsal 'bar ma nyi ma nyi ma rgyud, revealed by Nyang Ral Nyima Odzer in the late 12th century, explicitly lists the four common foundations, impermanence, death, karma, and suffering of samsara, as well as refuge, bodhicitta, mandala, Vajrasattva, and Guru Yoga. It is almost certain that this pattern of preliminaries dates from this tantra. This tantra itself set the pattern for Nyingma practice up until today.

With respect to Vajrasattva, it explicitly states it should be recited "Recite this one hundred, one thousand, one hundred thousand or countless times."
Buddhahood in This Life
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by anjali » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:42 pm

With tongue-in-cheek, I've occasionally thought that the massive number of required accumulations is an example of Parkinson's Law, where work expands to fill the time available for its completion. Full time practitioners (especially younger monks/nuns) need stuff to keep them busy, so more and more activities were added to fill up the available time. ;)
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