Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:19 am

yagmort wrote:Malcolm, thank you for the new info on Jatson Nyingpo.
Ya'll need to understand that more than 80% of all Tibetan literature was destroyed in the cultural revolution. This is why modern Tibetan text critical scholarship is basically bullshit.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:03 am

Malcolm, we all have opinions. That is fine, but for the sake of discussions like that one, it is my humble opinion, that it is better to support whatever statements you (not you personally) make with whatever info you have. Otherwise it is really hard to distinguish between self-importance-driven biased opinions and those which has a genuine inquiring intention without "i am right you are wrong" ego opposition.

In that regard i am thankful to Lay-Man as he stated both names and dates by naming 18th century and Khyentse, Kongtrul and Wangpo right away in his first reply. Despite all the remarks - which to my perception were the examples of ego-driven pokes at him - his answer have brought by magnus and grigoris, it did finally yield more specific information provided by you. So, even if he have been mistaken, again, IMHO, the info he provided has served as a foundation of further discoveries - thas is, your naming of Jatsön Nyingpo.

So, if i were a well equipped and educated scholar like you, dzoki or lay-man i would restate your saying as: "Ya'll need to understand that _[according to...]_ more than 80% of all Tibetan literature was destroyed in the cultural revolution. This is why _[i think/it is my opinion that]_ modern Tibetan text critical scholarship is basically bullshit." I hope you see what im trying to say.

this post is hugely offtopic, i just wish that everyone whould be more polite, kind and friendly to each other, especially considering we are supposed buddhists who have to develop sincere bodhicitta.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Miroku » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:22 pm

yagmort wrote: i would restate your saying as: "Ya'll need to understand that _[according to...]_ more than 80% of all Tibetan literature was destroyed in the cultural revolution. This is why _[i think/it is my opinion that]_ modern Tibetan text critical scholarship is basically bullshit."
I get you, but this statement comes from a common sense. There is a huge cultural genocide going on and we all can see that and don't need to citate or paraphrase anyone to support our claim. Also Malcolm as a scholar and long time practitioner can make such claims without paraphrasing here as this isn't academia and his posts are not a paper with works cited.

Also it can easily be just a hyperbole.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:26 pm

yagmort wrote:
In that regard i am thankful to Lay-Man as he stated both names and dates by naming 18th century and Khyentse, Kongtrul and Wangpo right away in his first reply. .
And he was incorrect. I am quite certain if one keeps poking at the pile of texts which survived we will find even earlier examples of the five bums. I am quite certain that Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo was not the first person to recommend this.

Text criticism involves a kind of myopia in which if one could not find a tradition in a book somewhere, it must have not existed.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:59 pm

miroku, i don't say anything about tibetan genocyde specificly, merely i used this quote as a nearest example of what i was trying to say.

Malcolm, being incorrect is not a problem. A sincere intent to find a truth is what matters most, imho. Lay-Man gave the answer for the best of his knowledge, and he didn't claim anything in absolute. But instead of constructive and respectful criticisms or corrections we got several pages of drama. You did come up with your example of Jatson Nyingpo just recently. I agree that if "one keeps poking at the pile of texts which survived we will find even earlier examples"... if you would make such a comment at the right time it would possibly save the thread from a lot of drama. all i am saying is being more good-hearted and well-grounded while expressing opposing opinions.

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:02 pm

yagmort wrote:
Malcolm, being incorrect is not a problem.
It is, if like Lay-Man, you hastily proclaim things as fact when you actually do not have all the facts before you. Lay-Man participated actively in spreading his ill-sourced info. He is responsible for that. People like Magnus were quite proper to correct him.

You did come up with your example of Jatson Nyingpo just recently.
If I spent all my time doing research to dispel all the misconceptions I see on DW, I would never get any work done. As it is I spend too much time on here anyway.

I suppose it would be better to leave you all to your misconceptions, whatever they may be.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
yagmort wrote:
Malcolm, being incorrect is not a problem.
It is, if like Lay-Man, you hastily proclaim things as fact when you actually do not have all the facts before you. Lay-Man participated actively in spreading his ill-sourced info. He is responsible for that. People like Magnus were quite proper to correct him.

You did come up with your example of Jatson Nyingpo just recently.
If I spent all my time doing research to dispel all the misconceptions I see on DW, I would never get any work done. As it is I spend too much time on here anyway.

I suppose it would be better to leave you all to your misconceptions, whatever they may be.
You are right. I was wrong.

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Grigoris
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:I suppose it would be better to leave you all to your misconceptions, whatever they may be.
:smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:40 am

Malcolm wrote:...People like Magnus were quite proper to correct him...

unlike you he didn't present any support to his arrogant remarks, therefore in my eyes they don't count as "corrections". from the example i gave above they were neither good-hearted nor well-grounded. but we see things in a different way, so i give up the discussion here.

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:13 am

yagmort wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...People like Magnus were quite proper to correct him...

unlike you he didn't present any support to his arrogant remarks...
The last thing in the world that Magnus is, is arrogant.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

amanitamusc
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:49 am

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I suppose it would be better to leave you all to your misconceptions, whatever they may be.
:smile:
Sad.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:08 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I suppose it would be better to leave you all to your misconceptions, whatever they may be.
:smile:
Sad.
You hear that?

That's the sound of a Bodhisattva vow breaking... :smile:

But, hey, even Avalokitesvara could not handle all us sentient beings, so I guess I can forgive Malcolm.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:
Grigoris wrote: :smile:
Sad.
You hear that?

That's the sound of a Bodhisattva vow breaking... :smile:
No, a bodhisattva has to understand whom they can help, and whom they do not have the capacity to help. Just because I may leave you to your misconceptions does not mean I cease wishing you to be free of them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:
Sad.
You hear that?

That's the sound of a Bodhisattva vow breaking... :smile:
No, a bodhisattva has to understand whom they can help, and whom they do not have the capacity to help. Just because I may leave you to your misconceptions does not mean I cease wishing you to be free of them.
Chill out dude, I am joking!

These Bodhisattvas are just too serious for their own good!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:You hear that?

That's the sound of a Bodhisattva vow breaking... :smile:
No, a bodhisattva has to understand whom they can help, and whom they do not have the capacity to help. Just because I may leave you to your misconceptions does not mean I cease wishing you to be free of them.
Chill out dude, I am joking!

These Bodhisattvas are just too serious for their own good!
I understood that you were joking, but it is also a serious point as well.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:12 am

got some info from the Drukpa side of things. there are 3 texts which are in use.

1. by 3rd Khamtrul Rinpoche, Kunga Tenzin (1680-1728), phyag chen lhan cig skye spyor sngon 'gro' khrid yig.

by 8th Drugchen Rinpoche, Kunzig Chonang (1768 - 1822) there are 2 versions, long and short one. *it is not certain they both are from the same Drugchen though, the monk who told me this is not 100% sure, but he said most probably they are.

2. long one, gdams ngag nyams len par mkho ba zab khrid mtha' dag gi sngon 'gro' ngag don gyi rim bar dmigs khrid don 'grel nyung ngur bkod pa mchog gi byin rlabs 'dren pa'i shing rta zhes bya ba bzhugs so

3. short one, sngon 'gro bzhi spyor gyi khrid dmigs ngag 'don nyung ngur spel ba byang chub snang byed nyor bu'i sgron me bzhugs so

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sat May 05, 2018 12:57 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:17 pm
Sakyas did not have a seperate ngondro text, as such, but they always had preliminaries. The idea of counting them all 100,000 at a time seems to be a relatively recent innovation. In the past, when doing a retreat one typically did each for a week or a month, depending one's time.
It seems that Drikung Kagyu is going (back in?) this direction, at least according to Khenpo Samdup of Gar Drölma Chöling. Last year when he was teaching on Garchen Rinpoche's new Fivefold Mahamudra ngöndro text, The Excellent Path to Enlightenment (i.e. lnga ldan sngon 'gro byang chub lam bzang), Khenpo mentioned a way that students could do ngöndro which I had never heard before and that really struck me.

He said that Drikung Kyabgön Trinley Lhundrup (a.k.a. H.H. the 37th Chetsang Rinpoche) wanted to acknowledge that many practitioners were non-monastic, and as such was emphasizing that students spend 1 week on each section, with the exception of Vajrasattva taking perhaps 2 weeks. The key to practicing in this way, as he related it, was to recite and visualize slowly and clearly, and explicitly NOT to count recitations.

I understand that practices in general can be accomplished either a) by number of recitations, b) by time, or c) by achieving the requisite signs. However, in my experience ngöndro always seemed immune to these options and to exclusively be framed as a practice which required accumulating 111,111 per section. Hearing that one expressly should not count seemed a radical and very modern concession based on the concerns and time constraints of "Western" students... refreshingly so.

The emphasis on quality over quantity is certainly a natural response since, as many have stated, ngöndro has largely become seen as a hurdle in the way of other, "more advanced" practices. Hardly surprising that with such a mindset many were/are going through the motions and rushing through just to get it over with (the very concern DJKR states in Not For Happiness which someone kindly posted earlier). And since clarity of visualization has been highlighted as one of the most important points of any practice (and particularly in kyerim), it is good to know that this new(?) method of doing ngöndro brings it to the fore. I think it can only make the transition from ngöndro to other practices an easier one... if indeed one transitions at all.

I wonder if someone can comment on whether Sakyapas who did each section a week at a time were likewise told to go slow, recite and visualize clearly, and not to count. Certainly we're all told to visualize clearly whenever possible and to the best of our ability, but what about the pace of practice? Were they still keeping track of their accumulations (since, after all, one of ngöndro's main functions is to accumulate merit), despite accomplishing the practices via time? Has anyone else here heard of this method being taught for accomplishing ngöndro in their respective traditions, whether historically or currently?
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Snowbear » Sat May 05, 2018 1:11 am

@Palzang, did Khenpo say this was a way to accomplish Ngondro or just a way to practice Ngondro?

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sat May 05, 2018 2:30 am

Khenpo mentioned that DKTL said practicing each section as a 1 (or 2) week retreat this way, one could consider the ngöndro accomplished.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sat May 05, 2018 8:38 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 12:57 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:17 pm
Sakyas did not have a seperate ngondro text, as such, but they always had preliminaries. The idea of counting them all 100,000 at a time seems to be a relatively recent innovation. In the past, when doing a retreat one typically did each for a week or a month, depending one's time.
It seems that Drikung Kagyu is going (back in?) this direction, at least according to Khenpo Samdup of Gar Drölma Chöling. Last year when he was teaching on Garchen Rinpoche's new Fivefold Mahamudra ngöndro text, The Excellent Path to Enlightenment (i.e. lnga ldan sngon 'gro byang chub lam bzang), Khenpo mentioned a way that students could do ngöndro which I had never heard before and that really struck me.

He said that Drikung Kyabgön Trinley Lhundrup (a.k.a. H.H. the 37th Chetsang Rinpoche) wanted to acknowledge that many practitioners were non-monastic, and as such was emphasizing that students spend 1 week on each section, with the exception of Vajrasattva taking perhaps 2 weeks. The key to practicing in this way, as he related it, was to recite and visualize slowly and clearly, and explicitly NOT to count recitations.

I understand that practices in general can be accomplished either a) by number of recitations, b) by time, or c) by achieving the requisite signs. However, in my experience ngöndro always seemed immune to these options and to exclusively be framed as a practice which required accumulating 111,111 per section. Hearing that one expressly should not count seemed a radical and very modern concession based on the concerns and time constraints of "Western" students... refreshingly so.

The emphasis on quality over quantity is certainly a natural response since, as many have stated, ngöndro has largely become seen as a hurdle in the way of other, "more advanced" practices. Hardly surprising that with such a mindset many were/are going through the motions and rushing through just to get it over with (the very concern DJKR states in Not For Happiness which someone kindly posted earlier). And since clarity of visualization has been highlighted as one of the most important points of any practice (and particularly in kyerim), it is good to know that this new(?) method of doing ngöndro brings it to the fore. I think it can only make the transition from ngöndro to other practices an easier one... if indeed one transitions at all.

I wonder if someone can comment on whether Sakyapas who did each section a week at a time were likewise told to go slow, recite and visualize clearly, and not to count. Certainly we're all told to visualize clearly whenever possible and to the best of our ability, but what about the pace of practice? Were they still keeping track of their accumulations (since, after all, one of ngöndro's main functions is to accumulate merit), despite accomplishing the practices via time? Has anyone else here heard of this method being taught for accomplishing ngöndro in their respective traditions, whether historically or currently?
Have a look here:
Tongnyid Dorje wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:12 pm
although ChNNR doesnt teach necessity of ngondro in general, he requires it at SMS training, and he is trying to make it meaningful, not to count numbers, but have a real experience. especially at first level,

i was lucky to met Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoche (bhutanese one), who gave us dudjom tersar short ngondro transmissions. we were talking little bit and he asked me about my ngondro practice. i described him what i did in SMS 1 level. he said, thats the better way than many tibetans do. he said, that tibetans can do ngondro in two months. they are repeating everything, but their minds wanders everywhere, just concetrating on numbers.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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