Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

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yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:57 am

i applaud to the poise of Lay-Man. i wouldn't even think that his answer to a short one-sentence question will provoke so much invectives upon his head.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:01 pm

heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
The discussion started on this thread because Yagmort asked the question, and I thought it would be helpful to him to share my own research.
And what is that research?

/magnus
Ok at this point I am just going to assume you are joking and be done with it. Its either that, or your not actually reading the thread before posting responses! LOL.

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heart
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:24 pm

Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
The discussion started on this thread because Yagmort asked the question, and I thought it would be helpful to him to share my own research.
And what is that research?

/magnus
Ok at this point I am just going to assume you are joking and be done with it. Its either that, or your not actually reading the thread before posting responses! LOL.
This is the real joke Lay-Man.
Lay-Man wrote:Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
You are the only person that tries to prove that the 100.000 accumulation is either 100-150 years old or 200-300 years old (a little ambivalent there). You should have some facts to back up your statements, but you don't have that. You just make it up as you go.
I have nothing to prove, since I stated long time ago that the age of the 100.000 accumulation practice doesn't matter to me. But I don't like it when people make statements about the history Dharma that they can't back up with facts.

So the joke is on you I'm afraid.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

yagmort
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:10 am

Lay-Man, as for me i added him to ignore list

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lelopa
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by lelopa » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:11 am

heart wrote:
You are the only person that tries to prove that the 100.000 accumulation is either 100-150 years old or 200-300 years old (a little ambivalent there). You should have some facts to back up your statements, but you don't have that. You just make it up as you go.
I have nothing to prove, since I stated long time ago that the age of the 100.000 accumulation practice doesn't matter to me. But I don't like it when people make statements about the history Dharma that they can't back up with facts.

..................

/magnus

:good:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:34 pm

heart wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
heart wrote:
And what is that research?

/magnus
Ok at this point I am just going to assume you are joking and be done with it. Its either that, or your not actually reading the thread before posting responses! LOL.
This is the real joke Lay-Man.
Lay-Man wrote:Well, I guess I am my own source! :smile:
You are the only person that tries to prove that the 100.000 accumulation is either 100-150 years old or 200-300 years old (a little ambivalent there). You should have some facts to back up your statements, but you don't have that. You just make it up as you go.
I have nothing to prove, since I stated long time ago that the age of the 100.000 accumulation practice doesn't matter to me. But I don't like it when people make statements about the history Dharma that they can't back up with facts.

So the joke is on you I'm afraid.

/magnus
Im sorry you are so upset.

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Grigoris
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:42 pm

Lay-Man wrote:Im sorry you are so upset.
I don't think he wants you to feel pity, I do believe he wants you to supply evidence for your claim.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:Im sorry you are so upset.
I don't think he wants you to feel pity, I do believe he wants you to supply evidence for your claim.
I will respond to both you and Magnus here, and then I would like to be done with this. As a new person to this forum, I have to admit that dealing with both of you has been a total headache. Im not sure what makes either of your so convinced of your own authority that you both continue to retort to my initial assertion with mere counter positions such as "prove it! Why do you care! I don't care!"...all the while asking me for more data. So here it is, and any response from either of your that is not a sound, logical response based in counter evidence and source text citation will not be responded to. Geezus.

The Karma Kagyu utilize largely a source Ngondro Text written by the 9th Karmapa of the 15th C. However, there is no Ngondro Commentary which prescribes the 100,000 prior to Kongtul's torch of certainty from the 9th century.

For Nyigma, as Malcom mentioned earlier, there are source texts that date back to the 12th century. However, in practice, the codification of Ngondro as practiced today by the most promulgated cycles derive from Longchen Nyingthik. There are no source commentaries of these ngondro practicer, or ANY other that I can find from other Terma tradition which predate Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's works from the 19th century, specifically Illuminating the Path of Omniscience, which denote the 100,000 accumulation requirement.

For Geluk, we find Losang Drakpa's famous work of the 15th C. which describes the need an nature of preliminary practice, but yet there is no select commentary since then within the Geluk that I have found which calls out the accumulation of 100,000.

Sakya is perhaps the easiest. Dezhung Rinpoche' wrote the first Sakya Ngondro that I know of that is codified as an independent or stand-alone practice. Accumulations are there as it was written in the 20th C.

We briefly reviewed Jo-Nang in this thread as well...No requirement for 100,000 accumulation prior to Thubten Gelek Gyatso of the 19th century.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:57 am

Lay-Man wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:Im sorry you are so upset.
I don't think he wants you to feel pity, I do believe he wants you to supply evidence for your claim.
I will respond to both you and Magnus here, and then I would like to be done with this. As a new person to this forum, I have to admit that dealing with both of you has been a total headache. Im not sure what makes either of your so convinced of your own authority that you both continue to retort to my initial assertion with mere counter positions such as "prove it! Why do you care! I don't care!"...all the while asking me for more data. So here it is, and any response from either of your that is not a sound, logical response based in counter evidence and source text citation will not be responded to. Geezus.

The Karma Kagyu utilize largely a source Ngondro Text written by the 9th Karmapa of the 15th C. However, there is no Ngondro Commentary which prescribes the 100,000 prior to Kongtul's torch of certainty from the 9th century.

For Nyigma, as Malcom mentioned earlier, there are source texts that date back to the 12th century. However, in practice, the codification of Ngondro as practiced today by the most promulgated cycles derive from Longchen Nyingthik. There are no source commentaries of these ngondro practicer, or ANY other that I can find from other Terma tradition which predate Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's works from the 19th century, specifically Illuminating the Path of Omniscience, which denote the 100,000 accumulation requirement.

For Geluk, we find Losang Drakpa's famous work of the 15th C. which describes the need an nature of preliminary practice, but yet there is no select commentary since then within the Geluk that I have found which calls out the accumulation of 100,000.

Sakya is perhaps the easiest. Dezhung Rinpoche' wrote the first Sakya Ngondro that I know of that is codified as an independent or stand-alone practice. Accumulations are there as it was written in the 20th C.

We briefly reviewed Jo-Nang in this thread as well...No requirement for 100,000 accumulation prior to Thubten Gelek Gyatso of the 19th century.
I have no idea why that was so difficult or why it give you headache.
You don't read Tibetan, right? There are literally hundreds of Ngondros in the Nyingma tradition. It would be quite unfair to say they "derive from Longchen Nyingthik".

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Grigoris
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Grigoris » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 am

Lay-Man wrote:I will respond to both you and Magnus here, and then I would like to be done with this. As a new person to this forum, I have to admit that dealing with both of you has been a total headache. Im not sure what makes either of your so convinced of your own authority that you both continue to retort to my initial assertion with mere counter positions such as "prove it! Why do you care! I don't care!"...all the while asking me for more data. So here it is, and any response from either of your that is not a sound, logical response based in counter evidence and source text citation will not be responded to. Geezus.
I am not the one making claims here, you made the claims, thus you should provide the evidence. That is the normal scientific and academic procedure, so quit whining.
The Karma Kagyu utilize largely a source Ngondro Text written by the 9th Karmapa of the 15th C. However, there is no Ngondro Commentary which prescribes the 100,000 prior to Kongtul's torch of certainty from the 9th century.

For Nyigma, as Malcom mentioned earlier, there are source texts that date back to the 12th century. However, in practice, the codification of Ngondro as practiced today by the most promulgated cycles derive from Longchen Nyingthik. There are no source commentaries of these ngondro practicer, or ANY other that I can find from other Terma tradition which predate Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's works from the 19th century, specifically Illuminating the Path of Omniscience, which denote the 100,000 accumulation requirement.

For Geluk, we find Losang Drakpa's famous work of the 15th C. which describes the need an nature of preliminary practice, but yet there is no select commentary since then within the Geluk that I have found which calls out the accumulation of 100,000.

Sakya is perhaps the easiest. Dezhung Rinpoche' wrote the first Sakya Ngondro that I know of that is codified as an independent or stand-alone practice. Accumulations are there as it was written in the 20th C.

We briefly reviewed Jo-Nang in this thread as well...No requirement for 100,000 accumulation prior to Thubten Gelek Gyatso of the 19th century.
Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:19 am

If one don't want to accumulate the 100.000 of each of the parts of the Ngondro there is always the possibility to practice each part until you get the signs of the practice instead.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by practitioner » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:37 am

heart wrote:If one don't want to accumulate the 100.000 of each of the parts of the Ngondro there is always the possibility to practice each part until you get the signs of the practice instead.

/magnus
And also no guarantee that signs would come quicker than 100000.
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:54 pm

Lay-Man wrote:
Sakya is perhaps the easiest. Dezhung Rinpoche' wrote the first Sakya Ngondro that I know of that is codified as an independent or stand-alone practice. Accumulations are there as it was written in the 20th C.
The first Sakya Ngondro is actually part of the Triple Continuum literature, specficially, the section of meditating the inseparability if samsara and nirvana. One is supposed to practice the preliminaries until one achieves signs.

The first formal text focusing on Sakya Ngondro was inpsired by Kun bzang bla ma'i zhal lung, and composed by Nalendra Khenpo Ngalo in the 1940's or there abouts. I have translated this text. It covers Ngondro for Hevajra, Vajrayogini, Yamantaka, and Tsembupa Chenrezi.

Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo (1585-1656) writes:
  • From that outer, inner secret and ultimate practice with the final action practice, in brief, no matter what kind of creation or completion practice one is doing, the preliminary of the best is one hundred thousand refuges, intents to awaken and prostrations; one hundred thousand Vajrasattvas. One hundred thousand mandalas, and one hundred thousand supplications. If this done before, in the main practice, the obstacles to practice will naturally non-exist, and the signs will quickly appear, and the result will be able to appear according to what is stated in the sadhanas. That is the instruction of the Guru Rinpoche. I, Jatson, have definitely experienced this
Therefore, you will have to revise this statement:

However, in practice, the codification of Ngondro as practiced today by the most promulgated cycles derive from Longchen Nyingthik. There are no source commentaries of these ngondro practicer, or ANY other that I can find from other Terma tradition which predate Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's works from the 19th century, specifically Illuminating the Path of Omniscience, which denote the 100,000 accumulation requirement.
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
Sakya is perhaps the easiest. Dezhung Rinpoche' wrote the first Sakya Ngondro that I know of that is codified as an independent or stand-alone practice. Accumulations are there as it was written in the 20th C.
The first Sakya Ngondro is actually part of the Triple Continuum literature, specficially, the section of meditating the inseparability if samsara and nirvana. One is supposed to practice the preliminaries until one achieves signs.

The first formal text focusing on Sakya Ngondro was inpsired by Kun bzang bla ma'i zhal lung, and composed by Nalendra Khenpo Ngalo in the 1940's or there abouts. I have translated this text. It covers Ngondro for Hevajra, Vajrayogini, Yamantaka, and Tsembupa Chenrezi.
Thanks Malcom! I was aware of this composition by Nalendra Khenpo Ngaio however in my analysis I did not take it into full consideration because my understanding of this work is that it is not a separate- or stand alone Ngondro practice , but is composed within the context of a Yidam practice. However I appreciate the additional info and the note on the influence from Patrul's work. I will have to look at these texts more deeply!

Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo (1585-1656) writes:
  • From that outer, inner secret and ultimate practice with the final action practice, in brief, no matter what kind of creation or completion practice one is doing, the preliminary of the best is one hundred thousand refuges, intents to awaken and prostrations; one hundred thousand Vajrasattvas. One hundred thousand mandalas, and one hundred thousand supplications. If this done before, in the main practice, the obstacles to practice will naturally non-exist, and the signs will quickly appear, and the result will be able to appear according to what is stated in the sadhanas. That is the instruction of the Guru Rinpoche. I, Jatson, have definitely experienced this
Therefore, you will have to revise this statement:

However, in practice, the codification of Ngondro as practiced today by the most promulgated cycles derive from Longchen Nyingthik. There are no source commentaries of these ngondro practicer, or ANY other that I can find from other Terma tradition which predate Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo's works from the 19th century, specifically Illuminating the Path of Omniscience, which denote the 100,000 accumulation requirement.
[/quote]


Agreed! Thanks for this source! I will explore! If indeed this source stems from the 16th C, we could consider Rigzin Jatson Nyingpo to be a contemporary of Wangchuk Dorje! Now the real question would be if one influenced the other! That is always a much harder question I think.

But thanks kindly for the direction and insight.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by heart » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:31 pm

Lay-Man wrote:
But thanks kindly for the direction and insight.
You are welcome :smile:

Just kidding. Malcolm reads Tibetan, this is how he can find these things.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:18 pm

Lay-Man wrote: If indeed this source stems from the 16th C...
If indeed? Are you completely bereft of your senses?
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: If indeed this source stems from the 16th C...
If indeed? Are you completely bereft of your senses?
Ha Ha. Point taken.

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Malcolm
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:53 pm

Lay-Man wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote: If indeed this source stems from the 16th C...
If indeed? Are you completely bereft of your senses?
Ha Ha. Point taken.

Also, your point about the Sakya Ngondro book is pointless. Ngondro is Ngondro, whether it is part of a sadhana or part of a guru yoga.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Lay-Man
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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by Lay-Man » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Lay-Man wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
If indeed? Are you completely bereft of your senses?
Ha Ha. Point taken.

Also, your point about the Sakya Ngondro book is pointless. Ngondro is Ngondro, whether it is part of a sadhana or part of a guru yoga.
That is one way to look at it, yes.

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Re: Did the 84 mahasiddhas practice Ngöndro?

Post by yagmort » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:07 am

Malcolm, thank you for the new info on Jatson Nyingpo.

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