More on recorded empowerments, etc.

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Malcolm
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More on recorded empowerments, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:42 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?
Then there is no difference between a live broadcast and a recording in terms of visual and auditory impressions. Maybe even mass empowerments are similar as well.

Yes, there is a difference, as I told you.

For example, a master has to create the mandala: there is the master's creation of himself as the mandala, the front created mandala, the mandala in the vase and so on and so forth.

Once the ritual has finished, all these mandalas and so on are dissolved so they do not exist anymore since they are not being maintained by the master's visualization, having been dissolved. I explained all of this already in the other thread on this point.

Not only that, but the recording generally only covers the activities for the disciple. All the activities that the master has to do before conferring the empowerment are not recorded.

Thus the recording is incapable of doing recreating these things since a recording has no mind, no volition and so on.

Really, there is no chance a recorded empowerment can actually confer empowerment, it is just not possible.

You see, this is why when people like yourself, who really have zero understanding of Varjayāna weigh in in such topics, your words are a best ignorant and at worst misleading.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:47 pm

Yes. There are many interdependent conditions for an initiation. Obviously, one cannot deliver offerings to a teacher's past. Offerings to the master at the conclusion of initiation is absolutely indispensable. So that proves one really needs to be seeing the teacher in person. Live remote broadcast is next best. But a past recording is not going to do anything.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 27, 2015 11:55 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:Offerings to the master at the conclusion of initiation is absolutely indispensable.
Somebody better let Garchen Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu know, pronto.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Sherlock
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:00 am

Practicing what the guru teaches is the best offering, so when we do guruyoga, sing SoV and dedicate at the end, we are offering.

Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:19 am

Sherlock wrote:Practicing what the guru teaches is the best offering, so when we do guruyoga, sing SoV and dedicate at the end, we are offering.
Yes, because the context of the original teaching of SOV was as an offering.

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bryandavis
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by bryandavis » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:29 am

Thank you Malcom for the more focused answer to the necessity of being in 'real time' when receiving an empowerment.

That helped broaden my reasoning. Though I knew from a few basic positions of why it is necessary, those were points we should all know as vajrayana students.

:anjali:

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Lhasa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Lhasa » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:43 am

With respect, Malcolm, why don't you write to Garchen Rinpoche, in Tibetan, or call him and ask him directly to clear this up. That way you get it straight from him without any translators in between.
Malcolm wrote:
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?
Then there is no difference between a live broadcast and a recording in terms of visual and auditory impressions. Maybe even mass empowerments are similar as well.

Yes, there is a difference, as I told you.

For example, a master has to create the mandala: there is the master's creation of himself as the mandala, the front created mandala, the mandala in the vase and so on and so forth.

Once the ritual has finished, all these mandalas and so on are dissolved so they do not exist anymore since they are not being maintained by the master's visualization, having been dissolved. I explained all of this already in the other thread on this point.

Not only that, but the recording generally only covers the activities for the disciple. All the activities that the master has to do before conferring the empowerment are not recorded.

Thus the recording is incapable of doing recreating these things since a recording has no mind, no volition and so on.

Really, there is no chance a recorded empowerment can actually confer empowerment, it is just not possible.

You see, this is why when people like yourself, who really have zero understanding of Varjayāna weigh in in such topics, your words are a best ignorant and at worst misleading.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:51 am

Lhasa wrote:With respect, Malcolm, why don't you write to Garchen Rinpoche, in Tibetan, or call him and ask him directly to clear this up. That way you get it straight from him without any translators in between.
So anytime a dubious claim/rumor pops up among western students, one must bother the Lama?

Is that your plan?
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:56 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Lhasa wrote:With respect, Malcolm, why don't you write to Garchen Rinpoche, in Tibetan, or call him and ask him directly to clear this up. That way you get it straight from him without any translators in between.
So basically anytime a dubious claim/rumor pops up among western students, one must bother the Lama?

It wasn't a dubious claim made a by practitioners, it was wording from Rinpoches translator etc. that some people interpreted as saying empowerment was possible via his recordings.

Still has not been cleared up definitively either, no matter how vehement the opinions of people on either side.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Sherlock
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Sherlock » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:57 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sherlock wrote:Practicing what the guru teaches is the best offering, so when we do guruyoga, sing SoV and dedicate at the end, we are offering.
Yes, because the context of the original teaching of SOV was as an offering.
Do you mean in the Dzogchen tantras or in ChNN's dream as a child?

DesertDweller
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by DesertDweller » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:59 am

Well, since it seems to be such an obvious point of confusion for many, and since it's so important that empowerments are done correctly, I don't see how it could count as "bothering" the lama to ask him for a definitive answer.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by BuddhaFollower » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:07 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote: It wasn't a dubious claim made a by practitioners, it was wording from Rinpoches translator etc.
So its like the incident when someone slipped a Ramana Maharishi quote into one of ChNN's books without his permission.

Or ghostwritten Tibetan Buddhist books in general.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:10 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote: It wasn't a dubious claim made a by practitioners, it was wording from Rinpoches translator etc.
So its like the incident when someone slipped a Ramana Maharishi quote in one of ChNN's books without his permission.

Or ghostwritten Tibetan Buddhist books in general.
No, you should go back and read the thread. It was easy to read it as saying empowerment was possible via the recordings, and many did, upon a request for clarification, the stuff that came back from the (I think) khenpo still was not entirely clear.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14135
Go ahead an check it out and let's now drop it from this thread to avoid OT.

Personally, Imma try to see him in person in July anyway, so no worries!
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:43 am

BuddhaFollower wrote:So its like the incident when someone slipped a Ramana Maharishi quote into one of ChNN's books without his permission.
I wonder who 'someone" was? :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:50 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Offerings to the master at the conclusion of initiation is absolutely indispensable.
Somebody better let Garchen Rinpoche and Chogyal Namkhai Norbu know, pronto.
Snark master. They know. They both do empowerments that they won't record or broadcast. All masters forbid recording or photographing during a major empowerment.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:55 am

Crazywisdom wrote:Snark master.
At your service. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Konchog1
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Re: More on recorded empowerments, etc.

Post by Konchog1 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:01 am

Hey Malcolm,

Is there any difference in terms of power or at least ease for the master between empowering one student and one thousand?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Malcolm
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Re: More on recorded empowerments, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:02 am

Some of you people are, understanably, ignorant of what an empowerment entails, what makes an empowerment valid and dies not constitute a valid empowerment. It is not something which is subjevt to the shifting opinions of this or that Tibetan.

Malcolm
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Re: More on recorded empowerments, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:03 am

Konchog1 wrote:Hey Malcolm,

Is there any difference in terms of power or at least ease for the master between empowering one student and one thousand?
Yes, their capacity for visualizing each person as the deity.

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Re: More on recorded empowerments, etc.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:08 am

Malcolm wrote:Some of you people are, understanably, ignorant of what an empowerment entails, what makes an empowerment valid and dies not constitute a valid empowerment. It is not something which is subjevt to the shifting opinions of this or that Tibetan.

That is only true if people accept that you are the sole authority on the subject Malcolm, no offense. I respect your scholarshp and depth of knowledge on the subject, but from my point of view you are speaking from a level of technical understanding I don't know, and so if you say something that seems to conflict with another teacher, I don't have any reason to default to your answers. It also wouldn't be the first time that you have said something that differs from other teachers. Maybe I would just go along if I were a scholar with a better technical understanding of empowerments, but i'm not - so to me, Garchen's rinpoches words would carry weight even if they disagreed with your technical explanation of what is possible for valid empowerment. I think that's reasonable.

Of course i'm not saying they do, only that a clear answer was never given in my reading, and I am no clearer on whether or not it was said that empowerment could come, or could not come from a recording.

I don't need to worry about them personally as I can go in person, but I don't feel like the issue is resolved in terms of the old thread.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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