What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

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antiquebuddhas
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What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by antiquebuddhas » Tue May 26, 2015 6:44 am

In Tibetan tradition, we often studied about tsa, lung and tigle.
Tsa means channel, lung means wind or breath and tigle means essences.
I would like to know more about tsa, lungs, and tigle.
What does these term means and what's their importance in Tibetan or Vajrayana tradition?
:anjali:
:namaste:
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 7:05 am

antiquebuddhas wrote:In Tibetan tradition, we often studied about tsa, lung and tigle.
Tsa means channel, lung means wind or breath and tigle means essences.
I would like to know more about tsa, lungs, and tigle.
What does these term means and what's their importance in Tibetan or Vajrayana tradition?
:anjali:
:namaste:

Tashi delek A,

Tsa = subtle channels in the body or also known as Nadis. We have 72000 of these chanels, from which the ida, pingala and sushumna are the main important channels used in some Yoga styles.

The Tigle or Bindhu is used as a drop, and visualized. This drop is (can be) situated in the heart or at the navel chakra etc..

The unclean winds of the sun and moon chanels (ida and pingala) are drawn into the central Sushumna chanel where these winds unites in the central chanel or Sushumna.

Then these winds become pure and can serve as the energy to move the Thigle.
For instance in Phowa the Thigle is then shoot upwards to the Brahma chakra to cause the preparation for the leaving of the mind through this chakra in the process of dying. If one has success with this practice (Phowa) there is a little whole on top of the head.

But there are many more practices based on this principle.
Tumo or heat yoga is similar to the above mentioned yoga.
Here the navel chakra is mobilised with the red Tigle / Bindhu .
This Red Bindhu is vitalized by visualization and can go to the heart, where it is dissolved into the 9 exits of the heart, through the whole body, which causes the heat.

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 7:06 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
antiquebuddhas wrote:In Tibetan tradition, we often studied about tsa, lung and tigle.
Tsa means channel, lung means wind or breath and tigle means essences.
I would like to know more about tsa, lungs, and tigle.
What does these term means and what's their importance in Tibetan or Vajrayana tradition?
:anjali:
:namaste:

Tashi delek A,

Tsa = subtle channels in the body or also known as Nadis. We have 72000 of these chanels, from which the ida, pingala and sushumna are the main important channels used in some Yoga styles.

The Tigle or Bindhu is used as a drop, and visualized. This drop is (can be) situated in the heart or at the navel chakra etc..

The unclean winds of the sun and moon chanels (ida and pingala) are drawn into the central Sushumna chanel where these winds unites in the central chanel or Sushumna.

Then these winds become pure and can serve as the energy to move the Thigle.
For instance in Phowa the Thigle is then shoot upwards to the Brahma chakra to cause the preparation for the leaving of the mind through this chakra in the process of dying. If one has success with this practice (Phowa) there is a little whole on top of the head.

But there are many more practices based on this principle.
Tumo or heat yoga is similar to the above mentioned yoga.
Here the navel chakra is mobilised with the red Tigle / Bindhu .
This Red Bindhu is vitalized by visualization and can go to the heart, where it is dissolved into the 9 exits of the heart, through the whole body, which causes the heat.

Mutsug Marro
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 9:28 am

Here the 72000 Nadis.
Nadis.jpg
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 9:32 am

Here the system of the dissolving into the Sushumna of the moon and sun winds (the unclean winds transformed into clean wind) and the manipulating of the related Bindhu. Here the technique for Phowa. But some make use of : Navel to hearth and heart to Brahma chakra instead of Navel chakra up to Brahma chakra.
Yoga nadis.jpg
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 9:43 am

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue May 26, 2015 11:38 am

Some other methods to influence the Chanels or Nadis with wind /breath

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=19716
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antiquebuddhas
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by antiquebuddhas » Wed May 27, 2015 7:10 am

kalden yungdrung wrote: Tashi delek A,

Tsa = subtle channels in the body or also known as Nadis. We have 72000 of these chanels, from which the ida, pingala and sushumna are the main important channels used in some Yoga styles.

The Tigle or Bindhu is used as a drop, and visualized. This drop is (can be) situated in the heart or at the navel chakra etc..

The unclean winds of the sun and moon chanels (ida and pingala) are drawn into the central Sushumna chanel where these winds unites in the central chanel or Sushumna.

Then these winds become pure and can serve as the energy to move the Thigle.
For instance in Phowa the Thigle is then shoot upwards to the Brahma chakra to cause the preparation for the leaving of the mind through this chakra in the process of dying. If one has success with this practice (Phowa) there is a little whole on top of the head.

But there are many more practices based on this principle.
Tumo or heat yoga is similar to the above mentioned yoga.
Here the navel chakra is mobilised with the red Tigle / Bindhu .
This Red Bindhu is vitalized by visualization and can go to the heart, where it is dissolved into the 9 exits of the heart, through the whole body, which causes the heat.

Mutsug Marro
KY
Namaste Kalden,
First of all, thank you.
So as I have mentioned, all tsa, lungs,and tigle are all the parts of 72000 channels in our bodies.
And tigle is located in the heart of our body, and tsa is located in most of our body.
I was wondering if we focus on the Tsa channel, we can be able to feel and change the flow of the sensation that are created in our body.
Let's say, while meditating we try to feel the sensation, feelings that arises on some part of body (like toes and foot), that means we are able to focus on Tsa channels.
:anjali:
"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." Lord Buddha

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by antiquebuddhas » Wed May 27, 2015 7:14 am

And Tsa, lungs and tigle and all other 72000 channels are focused on basic meditation practice or is it specialized in Tibetan or Vajrayana Buddhist tradition.
:namaste:
:anjali:
"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared." Lord Buddha

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed May 27, 2015 4:20 pm

Manifestations of Buddhas activities.

The final yoga.

Quintessence of the path.

The real mandala.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by conebeckham » Wed May 27, 2015 6:49 pm

Tsa, Lung, and Tigle should be learned at the foot of a master.

It's not worth spending time worrying about these subjects, frankly, unless and until one has Highest Yoga Empowerment, and has practiced for some time. I'll refer you to "The Profound Inner Principles," a text which treats these subjects in quite a bit of detail. But even reading a book and learning about these things is collecting facts. These things have great value only when they are approached via practice. They are the quintessential subjects of Highest Yoga Tantra, in fact.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri May 29, 2015 9:40 am

antiquebuddhas wrote: Namaste Kalden,
First of all, thank you.
So as I have mentioned, all tsa, lungs,and tigle are all the parts of 72000 channels in our bodies.
And tigle is located in the heart of our body, and tsa is located in most of our body.
I was wondering if we focus on the Tsa channel, we can be able to feel and change the flow of the sensation that are created in our body.
Let's say, while meditating we try to feel the sensation, feelings that arises on some part of body (like toes and foot), that means we are able to focus on Tsa channels.
:anjali:
Tashi delek A,

These yogas do i see as adds to get the Buddha in the heart enlightened , whereas in Dzogchen this inner entity called Bodhicitta in Tantra is already enlightened. So it is all yoga which go from gross to subtle, via a dualistic approach and called Tantra.

If i see it in the Dzogchen way then in the heart this Bodhicitta will be the already complete dwelling Buddhahood.

Indeed in Tantra we can see this as from gross to subtle development, from the Bodhicitta as: outer / inner and secret emancipation.

This inner complete Buddhahood is not so secret in Dzogchen and does not need also that secrecy. It is secret and unknown if we cannot have the right vision and awareness about this inner already complete , clear and radiant entity our Buddhahood.
Then, the experience of this Buddhahood which is residing in the heart, that is experienced by everybody sometimes but is not recognized as such, is remarkable. So to experience this entity which is already there complete, that is the way in Dzogchen and if we compare this to Tantra then one has to go up the 3 stairs of outer / inner and secret to reach the result or fruit.

So all in all do we encounter in Tantra the slowly approach to this Buddhahood from outside to inside whereas in Dzogchen this is done right on without secrecy.

Personal do i see Phowa and Tsalung Trulkor as not secret Yoga as well Tumo. Also working with the Thigle / bindhu do i see as Yoga and not secret. They are for me personal seen all dualistic methods and can cause bliss etc. all Mind based things.
Ok some make out of this Mind secret things, that is understandable for me, in case we deal with some methods for some humans.

Dzogchen bliss is self emanating and not caused by Yoga etc. if we can remain in our Natural State.

My Dzogchen experience / awareness is unique but not secret at all, because everybody has so his/her own experience. But the most are not aware of this fact even if they do some Tantra.

But that Yoga is made secret (Tantra) that has sure so its reason. :smile:



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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by Vasana » Fri May 29, 2015 3:01 pm

You can derive benefit from working with the subtle channels,winds and drops, but it can also be a source of distraction and without proper guidance and understanding, can actually cause a lot of harm.

Working with them properly can enhance experiences of the mind's nature and bring about temporary experiences of clarity,bliss and non-thought, but it can also lead to even more conceptualization and attachment to the same temporary and fleeting experiences.

In Mahamudra and Dzogchen, practicing a path of method needs has to be accompanied by the path of liberation (recognition of minds nature ) for the practices to actually be of any benefit.

From Sarahas 'Song for the king' doha.

"For the sake of the winds, you meditate on your body as an empty house,
Practicing artificial methods in great variety and number,
From space it falls, along with faults,
Overwhelmed, the yogi faints away."
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri May 29, 2015 3:16 pm

Vasana wrote:You can derive benefit from working with the subtle channels,winds and drops, but it can also be a source of distraction and without proper guidance and understanding, can actually cause a lot of harm.
Yes it could be that if ones level of understanding is poor and bad karma, every teaching , practice is difficult and can cause harm.
This because one is not able to listen to the inner Guru which is self emanating Wisdom. This is temporal ignorance.


Working with them properly can enhance experiences of the mind's nature and bring about temporary experiences of clarity,bliss and non-thought, but it can also lead to even more conceptualization and attachment to the same temporary and fleeting experiences.


You mention here temporary results? Yes wrong understood some teachings will cause a wrong concept of emptiness. It is mostly due to a wrong understanding of the many emptiness philosophies, that persons go wrong. Therefore a first understanding of the many forms of emptiness is needed for NOT making a mistake in the practice, according my understanding and experience. So if one makes a choice about that understanding of that emptiness , that will result in THAT path. And that path can be of course temporal untill another form of emptiness is accepted.

In Mahamudra and Dzogchen, practicing a path of method needs has to be accompanied by the path of liberation (recognition of minds nature ) for the practices to actually be of any benefit.


Yes here again the Mind is empty, but what does this emptiness mean in relation to the Dharma Dhatu and vice versa?

Below in Sahara's song:

- Is the body empty?
- Is the Mind empty?

Mutsug Marro
KY



From Sarahas 'Song for the king' doha.

"For the sake of the winds, you meditate on your body as an empty house,
Practicing artificial methods in great variety and number,
From space it falls, along with faults,
Overwhelmed, the yogi faints away."
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by Vasana » Fri May 29, 2015 7:07 pm

Kalden yungdrung , the potential for harm mentioned is from practicing with prana/lung in certain pranayama practices without understanding the correct technique and understanding your own elemental condition and knowing which element is predominant.

I can't remember the old idiom , but it was something like "Pranayama; practiced correctly, the cure for every illness , practiced incorrectly, the cause for every disturbance"

I mentioned temporary experiences, not results. Up until the point of realization , every meditative experience is just a nyam. (experience). Because we still have latent afflictions and conditioning, experiences of the natural state are usually mixed with those 'three moods' (nyams gsum) that can arise as signs of progress in meditation.

from the Rangjung Yeshe Wiki ;
i]"Bliss, clarity and nonthought (bde gsal mi rtog pa). Three temporary meditation experiences. Fixation on these plants the seeds for rebirth in the three realms of samsara. Without fixation, they are adornments of the three kayas, thus

"The three kayas are the Dharmakaya, the Sambhogakaya, and the Nirmanakaya. The three kayas as ground are essence, nature, and capacity; as path these are bliss, clarity and nonthought; and as fruition these are the three kayas of buddhahood."[/i]

Further elaboration from a teaching from Tsoknyi Rinpoche;
"There are signs you can observe or to look [for] to see if you have progress in your practice. They are clarity, bliss and non-thought. For beginners there is only problems, not much bliss or non-thought. Sometimes when one recognizes nature of mind, one will feel more confident and get inspired to do more practice. Sometimes your completely lost and then you recognize again. Then joy arises and you get inspired to do more practice. When you sit and you are in the state of Rigpa, you will maybe say oh! This I have experienced before in life. So your whole body can feel bliss and everything you see is blissful. At this stage it is not realization, but experiences and after some time you will feel suffering, because you hold on to this experience. Sometimes you will feel extremely blissful, because your channels and winds are in balance. You should sit straight and best is the 7-point posture of Variochana. Of the “Tsa-Lung-Tikle”, there is “Gross” and “Pure” (experiences).

The subtle energy-channels are connected with the mind. So when one becomes enlightened, the body and channels becomes “Vajra-body” and the speech becomes “Vajra-speech” and the mind “Vajra-mind”. You can perceive strong clarity (light); everything seems very clear and pure. So whatever happens, just keep on. Don’t give up, and look at everything as experiences and things will stabilize. Also the non-thought can last for long time, just don’t make a big thing out of it. "
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat May 30, 2015 8:02 am

[quote="Vasana"]Kalden yungdrung , the potential for harm mentioned is from practicing with prana/lung in certain pranayama practices without understanding the correct technique and understanding your own elemental condition and knowing which element is predominant.

Well that is with everything if we experience with something without the correct understanding. But there are persons who experience even after they have learned how to do the practice. Last mentioned experience is sure emancipation, whereas first mentioned experience would be not.

Then we have the special persons who can learn by themselves because they can listen to their inner Guru. There are not much of them but they exist. They experience also but have success herewith.


I can't remember the old idiom , but it was something like "Pranayama; practiced correctly, the cure for every illness , practiced incorrectly, the cause for every disturbance"

That disturbance can come from their Mind, even if the practice is ok done. Some practice propels emotions. But general seen a good practice results in a good health as well mental as well phisycal.
All these yogic exercises can develop a good feeling and this can influence the body. As well the healthy body can influence the mind.
But a healthy mind without Yoga can influence / cause a healthy body. So if the mind is not ok and if we do Yoga this can make the mind more bad than before. So it is difficult to say sometimes what is wrong or right in our practice.
If a mad man does the right yoga exercises, he will be more mad than before......


I mentioned temporary experiences, not results. Up until the point of realization , every meditative experience is just a nyam. (experience). Because we still have latent afflictions and conditioning, experiences of the natural state are usually mixed with those 'three moods' (nyams gsum) that can arise as signs of progress in meditation.

If we are in the Natural State we don't have thoughts. Before we are in the Natural State we can have usefull Nyams. Some adhere to this position that Nyams are thoughts and are not a part of the Natural State and some say they are self emergent in the Natural State but are not Rigpa.

See also the link below for further explanations:
http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=19755

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by Vasana » Sat May 30, 2015 10:00 am

I'm not sure if you actually read my posts or understood their intent properly or not. You're preaching to the converted :quoteunquote:

Of course the practices are fine, and can be complimentary to overcoming doubts about the natural state, so long as they're approached correctly.

You can say that some people are in tune to their inner guru which can be true, but when it comes to forcefully manipulating the winds a la kumbhaka ,tummo etc, if your predominate element is Wind/Air or you have a wind imbalance (which most people appear to now days ) it can cause more problems than benefit if you go about it too quickly.
This isn't my 'personal opinion' either, you'll find similar precautionary advice for correcting any faults that can arise from incorrect practice in any authentic source of teachings.

"If we are in the Natural State we don't have thoughts"



You can be in the natural state with and without thoughts but as practice continues, states of non-thought can become the norm.
Last edited by Vasana on Sat May 30, 2015 10:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat May 30, 2015 10:08 am

Vasana wrote:I'm not sure if you actually read my posts or understood their intent properly or not. You're preaching to the converted :quoteunquote:

Of course the practices are fine, and can be complimentary to overcoming doubts about the natural state, so long as they're approached correctly.

You can say that some people are in tune to their inner guru which can be true, but when it comes to forcefully manipulating the winds a la kumbhaka ,tummo etc, if your predominate element is Wind/Air or you have a wind imbalance (which most people appear to now days ) it can cause more problems than benefit if you go about it too quickly.
This isn't my 'personal opinion' either, you'll find similar precautionary advice for correcting any faults that can arise from incorrect practice in any authentic source of teachings.

"If we are in the Natural State we don't have thoughts"

You can be in the natural state with and without thoughts.
Tashi delek V,

I understood the message.
All practice is dangerous if understood wrong.

Regarding the NS, we can have thoughts and no thoughts, even if we don't have thoughts there can appear thoughts. :D
But i guess not to follow everything which can appear in the NS, that is the meaning of abiding in this NS, isn't it?

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Re: What is the meaning of Tsa, Lung and Tigle?

Post by Vasana » Sat May 30, 2015 10:11 am

Yep!
When scattering occurs, the “scatterer" is the mind; lacking color and shape, it cannot be pinned down. When it rests, the "rester is the mind; it is the primordial reality that is liberated from the start. There is nothing to accept or reject, no hopes or wories, no judgments. One just settles into the great foundationless state that is empty from the start.
~ Longchenpa
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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