Wake up call

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
ngodrup
Posts: 746
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 6:58 pm

Wake up call

Post by ngodrup » Fri Jul 17, 2015 5:54 pm

Ok so a vajra sibling posted this elsewhere. And the request was made by Rinpoche himself,
to quote him on it, so out goes this little note.

Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche said today in front of a large group of about 800 practitioners,
that he thinks the young Tibetan lineage holders coming up in general are quite unimpressive.
They're lazy and spoiled, and they need to do a lot better.

His goal of telling us was to a) shame them via back biting (he said this, not me.) by circulating
what he said on the internet. b) exceed the "lineage holders" by becoming great practitioners and
with a lot of knowledge ourselves, thereby shaming them into improving themselves.

He explicitly said that *some* Lamas even give empowerments for practices they haven't
themselves received. So we must basically become better than them, and thereby insisting
on qualified, experienced teachers that actually meet our needs as serious practitioners. So
maybe they will step up to the plate, as it were.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:08 pm

ngodrup wrote:Ok so a vajra sibling posted this elsewhere. And the request was made by Rinpoche himself,
to quote him on it, so out goes this little note.

Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche said today in front of a large group of about 800 practitioners,
that he thinks the young Tibetan lineage holders coming up in general are quite unimpressive.
They're lazy and spoiled, and they need to do a lot better.

His goal of telling us was to a) shame them via back biting (he said this, not me.) by circulating
what he said on the internet. b) exceed the "lineage holders" by becoming great practitioners and
with a lot of knowledge ourselves, thereby shaming them into improving themselves.

He explicitly said that *some* Lamas even give empowerments for practices they haven't
themselves received. So we must basically become better than them, and thereby insisting
on qualified, experienced teachers that actually meet our needs as serious practitioners. So
maybe they will step up to the plate, as it were.
Nothing I have not been saying for years, especially with regard to Dzogchen teachings, of which there are very few qualified teachers.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:09 pm

Yup, I was there.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:11 pm

I wonder if this was an oblique reference to money rather than expertise. Current troubles for certain lineages, etc.

:(

theanarchist
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:26 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by theanarchist » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:37 pm

They are suffering from the "modern lifestyle" dilemma just like us normal people unfortunately.

Lamas like Mingyur Rinpoche, who spend considerable time in retreat in their younger years seem to have become rather rare....

But is the environment of those young Rinpoches, where they grow up, really encouraging the lifestyle of a yogi? Don't they prefer to have them as a representative figurehead for their predecessors monastic institutions?

Wouldn't it be good to let them experience the more shitty sides of todays samsare life for a few years, to motivate them to develop some amount of renunciation and a motivation to do something about the suffering present in the world?

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:43 pm

Or the aristocratic lifestyle dilemma.

:(

Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Fri Jul 17, 2015 7:51 pm

it's a very skillful critique of the rest of us as well.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:18 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:I wonder if this was an oblique reference to money rather than expertise. Current troubles for certain lineages, etc.

:(
Well, if I recall correctly, he said that he had criticized the Tulkus in question to their faces, but he felt that "backbiting" might be more effective...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:21 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:I wonder if this was an oblique reference to money rather than expertise. Current troubles for certain lineages, etc.

:(
Well, if I recall correctly, he said that he had criticized the Tulkus in question to their faces, but he felt that "backbiting" might be more effective...
It is just more proof that tulku system is completely bogus and needs to be phased out.

smcj
Posts: 6950
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:26 pm

It is just more proof that tulku system is completely bogus and needs to be phased out.
"Completely bogus"? How many of your teachers are tulkus? Have you run this idea by them?

Personally I think Gesar Mukpo did an adequate job of dispelling any fantasies about what being a tulku guarantees with his documentary. The whole issue with labrangs is a completely different matter.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Urgyen Dorje
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 5:44 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Urgyen Dorje » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:35 pm

I know a tulku who thinks the tulku system is bogus and needs to be phased out.
Malcolm wrote:It is just more proof that tulku system is completely bogus and needs to be phased out.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:44 pm

smcj wrote:
It is just more proof that tulku system is completely bogus and needs to be phased out.
"Completely bogus"?
Yes, the tulku system is completely bogus and needs to be phased out.
How many of your teachers are tulkus? Have you run this idea by them?
A number of my teachers are tulkus. They are not naive. They are also trapped in the system.
Personally I think Gesar Mukpo did an adequate job of dispelling any fantasies about what being a tulku guarantees with his documentary. The whole issue with labrangs is a completely different matter.
The tulku system is just a money and power game, it always has been. My point of view on the tulku system is no secret. Every single major nasty political issue in Tibetan Buddhism today stems from the politics surrounding tulkus, from the Karmapa to the Gyalpo cult.

User avatar
cloudburst
Posts: 353
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:49 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by cloudburst » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:44 pm

the tulku system is a disaster for Buddhism now

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:47 pm

M-la, you've said this before ...

If nirmanakaya is unrepeatable, that seems to weaken the role of kundzop guru back into a preceptor or spiritual friend. Who wants to nail themselves to someone who just received blessings in this one life? If I ever get a yidam, my door to the vajra world would become more just yidam only, not guru.

Anyway how would you say that, the tul ku was never valid or at some point they stopped coming back?

smcj
Posts: 6950
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:51 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:M-la, you've said this before ...
…and this is not anything like what DJKR said at the start of this thread.
Last edited by smcj on Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:52 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:M-la, you've said this before ...

If nirmanakaya is unrepeatable, that seems to weaken the role of kundzop guru back into a preceptor or spiritual friend. Who wants to nail themselves to someone who just received blessings in this one life? If I ever get a yidam, my door to the vajra world would become more just yidam only, not guru.

Anyway how would you say that, the tul ku was never valid or at some point they stopped coming back?
You must a distinction between the actual nirmanakāya, the guru as a representation of the nirmanakāya and the Tibetan religio-political system of consecrating small children as living statues to ensure donations for monasteries.

smcj
Posts: 6950
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:55 pm

Malcolm wrote: You must a distinction between the actual nirmanakāya, the guru as a representation of the nirmanakāya and the Tibetan religio-political system of consecrating small children as living statues to ensure donations for monasteries.
That's a reasonable position to take, and not all that different than what I meant when I referred to Mukpo's documentary dispelling myths.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:55 pm

smcj wrote:
Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:M-la, you've said this before ...
…and this is not anything like what DJKR said at the start of this thread.
Sure, I am just identifying the real cause of the problem that DKR is talking about. It does not mean that people recognized as tulkus do not have a lot of merit, of course they do — it is like being born into a wealthy family and so on, and other high rebirths in samsara. But tulkus are for the most part ordinary sentient beings who have to train every bit as much as those of us who are not recognized as tulkus.

User avatar
Karma Dondrup Tashi
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:13 pm

Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:You must a distinction between the actual nirmanakāya, the guru as a representation of the nirmanakāya and the Tibetan religio-political system of consecrating small children as living statues to ensure donations for monasteries.
Yea.

I don't know, they may have much bigger problems, even just re: children, monasteries, etc.

:(

I don't know if you can get rid of politics.

To bring this back to topic, the solution may just be for some of the high profilers to behave themselves.

This sounds like throwing baby out w bathwater.

Plus like I say, there's history, what do you do with that?
Last edited by Karma Dondrup Tashi on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Malcolm
Posts: 31196
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:00 pm

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:Yea.

I don't know, they may have much bigger problems, even just re: children, monasteries, etc.

:(

I don't know if you can get rid of politics.

To bring this back to topic, the solution may just be for some of the high profilers to behave themselves.

This sounds like throwing baby out w bathwater.

Plus like I say, there's history, what do you do with that?
History is in the past, it is finished, just writing on a page — is it worthwhile to keep making the same mistakes over and over again because of a tradition that does not even have any support in sūtra or tantra?

Truthfully, the only reincarnation that I have any confidence is in Chogyal Namkhai Norbu because he was recognized by someone who attained rainbow body, his uncle. The rest of them I really don't believe in.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], yagmort and 42 guests