Wake up call

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Karma Dondrup Tashi
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Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:40 am

theanarchist wrote:That man absolutely hates to be put on a throne or be praised as a teacher, or dragged in front of a crowd.

Some say that he is Manjushri incarnate, I just say, he is the most intelligent person I have ever had the pleasure having converstation with.
I guess I'm still on the honeymoon re: various issues which will end but in my limited experience all tulkus I have listened to eventually talk about this issue with respect to themselves and not one has been anything but reserved and reluctant about it or at least humorous and demure. Including Dzongar Khyentse Rinpoche and also the beloved master who showed me the nature of the mind, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. I have no doubt whatsoever these persons are bodhisattvas.

And I think UD is on the right track. This comment was given during an empowerment, we should be very cautious and circumspect how to understand it.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:07 am

Edit: also re: money we should be careful about generalizations. This is like the unbelievably dumb fat thread. After a point money is ok, we need it. There are major issues sure. But I'd certainly rather give that powerful weapon to dharma than other things.

Edit 2 and no this is not a shangri la issue. God knows there are major problems on both sides of October 1950. But even when the rose colored glasses come off, we need to commit to the tradition or not. There are hell of a lot of things from the (western) enlightenment that should and can give way to the dharma. The tulku principle is an immense and deep history. It's an integral feature of TB, one of the things that distinguishes it from the other dharma sanghas. By committing to it we're not playing dances with Tibetans. Ditching it has major, major repercussions not only for vajra but also maya view. These people are bodhisattvas and they are real, actual rupa gurus really able to express the self arising wisdom in rupa context, here in this world, they are not similes for symbols for other things. Already even just since Trungpa in the 70s major portions of dharma in the West are deemed optional, like it was McDonalds. We owe loyalty to our teachers. Even if they are just spiritual friends not masters yet. Hell even our refuge vows have this total commitment.

Edit 3 like I say, yes I'm still on the honeymoon. But you know what I hope it lasts for a good while longer. TB is the least anti-life, most life-affirming Buddhism there is, it doesn't just have the most complete mind but also the biggest heart. What bigger heart of the bodhisattva is there than the idea that a mindstream really does have so much compassion and loving kindness that it does in actual fact, not metaphorically, not symbolically, but really come back to to nama rupa, to help the rest of us?

Edit 4 and even from big bad vajra view yes UD I think we do have dogs in this fight. In the prototype of all outer mandalas coming from the east is mirror like wisdom. Mirror-like. not "reflection-like". It's not like some guy who just receives blessings from daddy. Hell we can all say that. We all already have concepts for that. The whole point is that in the mirror the reflection both is and is not like nama rupa. Rupa's just rupa. This life, whatever, blah. Daddy blessings, blah. We know, we know, we all know, whatevs. But - the reflection in the mirror is rupa sure but it also isn't. So that mirror doesn't come from these parts man. It's from out of town. Someone else is holding that mirror. But at the same time it knows how to reflect ie it's reflections have been here before, have always been here. Otherwise that flavor of emptiness is a samsara-only emptiness ie something we already know and can turn into some dumb metaphor or philosophy.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:37 am

Edit 5. You nice sweet rime Gelukpas who love the nice sweet rime Dalai Lama and yes yes yes don't like the gyalpo, etc, etc, you let the nice sweet Dalai Lama introduce you to nice sweet Kalachakra and give him some nice sweet tea in your living room and then tell us you're not supposed to build that vajra throne on top of Sumeru and then throw all of Jambudvipa at the feet of your guru. Vajra guru isn't just business as usual, he turns your shamatha zafu into a throne. Vajra is a weapon for the chakravartin made by the very god Brahma himself. Yes it knows what its target is here in rupa because it's made from the bones and spine of the ancient rupa sage. But that's not who wields it now and that's not whose hand it returns to. Yes, yes, nice little literalistic interpretation of the silly symbolic metaphorical myth for those of us youngsters still on honeymoon with dharma. But until I get so enlightened slash cynical that a Hayagriva empowerment is business as usual I'm going to do exactly what Rinpoche said and get myself so consistent in self arising wisdom that the clarity of the western sanghas that come from us are so powerful and irresistible they even put my own lineage to shame.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by smcj » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:45 am

Huh?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:31 am

Exactly.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:22 am

A nirmanakaya which actually, in flesh and blood, repeats in space and time is the only final logical result of the bodhisattva vow. And if this vow doesn't in fact, in reality span death, then it's just a symbol. And we might as well pick and choose whatever symbol de jour is in fashion. Self generate f******g Mickey Mouse who cares it's not strong enough to resist the amnesia of rebirth, just like the metaphorical vow of your guru.

When you receive authorization to self generate and complete the yidam, you're no longer a practitioner. You're not just nailed to a metaphor or symbol or simile. You're nailed to the flesh and blood guru, which means you're nailed to the lineage. You're a holder of that lineage. You're not just sitting on a cushion any more but a chair of office. And what are you going to say from that position of responsibility, well, I like this, I quibble with that, this is ok but of course that thing is dumb, etc? WTF. You don't choose to be nailed to the guru's this but not his that. You've bought the whole package soup to nuts. Otherwise you're just a joke from vajra hell like all the other fake shmucks.

And what are you going to say, my guru's vow is just some nice words we say when we start our practice but come on it's not like it's more powerful than death or anything. He couldn't actually, really come back like the vow says, that's just a metaphor. Oh yea? What is that you're sucking into your heart and huffing and puffing through your inner mandala, some metaphor that death could just snap it's fingers and make disappear? You might as well quit the yidam and start popping a balloon every day as your practice. What the hell I don't believe I even have to be explaining this, I don't even have a yidam you're the one who should be telling me this. Degenerate age, kali yuga, blah blah, if you're a lineage holder - who's responsible?!

Emptiness isn't some ultimate view get out of jail free card you hand to your guru to apologize for all the crap in relative view you don't like. The reverse. One flavor is mirror like wisdom, ok? The rising sun from the east, the MF vajra itself. What do you think that means? Every f*****g shmuck knows he's conscious. Ask anyone if they're conscious. Yes, conscious, check. Reflection of phenomena, check. That's ordinary, we know about that already. Consciousness, big deal. Conscious guru, big deal. Super mega consciousness guru, big deal. Guru who's ripped open the boundaries of consciousness and seen beyond the blah blah blah, snore, snore, big deal. We know about it. Snore. We could draw a cartoon of that kind of guru, Superman breaking open the doors of perception, yawn, whatever.

That isn't mirror like wisdom. Everyone thinks that a reflection is just "me". Yawn, there it is, again me. The cup of coffee me. The super mega guru who went up into dhatu ... dharmakaya ... thing ... whatever. The guru who climbed the groovy ladder into the vision of the blah blah blah of awesomeness, zzzzz. "Me". We get that guru already. it's the "me" guru. You might as well get your cup of coffee to tell you how groovy consciousness is.

The point of mirror like wisdom is that ok, sure it's "you". But also - it isn't you. point to the cup of coffee. Point to the reflection in the mirror. What do you expect the reflection to do feel what you're feeling see what you're seeing? It isn't you. Get it? There not just one reflection in the mirror there's the reflection which is obviously you and one which is obviously not-you-but-still-somehow-you. The whole point is that the reflection which is "you" is limited by every single thing that is part of nama rupa, like your beliefs about how cups of coffee have to be, about your parents. Including - the limitations resulting from the amnesia of death and rebirth. Why else is death and rebirth part of Mara' wheel? Every single thing whatsoever in the reflection-that-is-me is limited. Including by the limit of death.

So the point is, if in addition to the reflection-that-is-me there is also clearly and obviously a reflection-that-is-not-me - where in the living hell did that come from? It cannot come from me "me" by definition, by the "me" that is limited by anything, including anything that is limited by death or amnesia, or likewise from the "me" guru whose flesh and blood is likewise a cause for that guru to be limited by death and amnesia. It's not enough for guru to break on through. That's just another "me" idea, just another "me" reflection, just another cartoon. It's a Doors song. So your guru can break in through so what even Jim Morrison was super mega groovy conscious and could break on through.

The whole point of mirror like wisdom is that there is a part of the coffee cup and the guru and me which is completely and totally apart from any frame of reference or limitation whatsoever that I or the "me" guru have ever experienced or conceived. Including the frame of reference of this one, single life. What do you think, your guru clenched his teeth and held his breath and took a quick peek? Before he had to take a breath and come back to this one life where he remembers that coffee cups are coffee cups and everything works like it should work after he was born? That guru is completely within the frame of reference of how things work in this single life. Vajra guru doesn't have to clench his teeth and take a breath and take a quick peek, he is in it 24/7. If that's not your view of kundzop guru, if you're not breathing something that is beyond death and from another life beyond all frames of references in this life - give it up, go hand out packed lunches or something, you're not doing your yidam, you don't have an inner mandala, you're doing Mickey Mouse, and you're just inside a cartoon of something you already know about.

How can you possibly take refuge in that kind of vajra guru? A guru who just clenches his teeth because he's just lucky to learn some stuff about how to clench his teeth properly and realizes something groovy? We know all about clenching our teeth and realizing something groovy already. It's not that hard just take some LSD or whatever. We know all about visiting heaven and hell thank you very much we have lots of cartoons and ideas and BS about it already. That's the reflection of me. Yawn.

What we don't know, what will shock the living hell out of us, what we can't imagine or conceive, is something that is 110% not-me, something that comes from beyond this one life of the coffee cup, this one life of the guru, this one life of mine. It's where rubbing the coffee cup all over your body isn't just some weird perspective we can take a peek at, it's totally normal, because it's from someone else's normal someone else's life, another one of my lives. Vajra Guru doesn't just take a peek at that other life, he is that other life. Something from another life completely, not just as a metaphor, not just as a 50% not-me, but as a 100%, not-me, a thread, a continuity, a nature, a guru, from beyond all of this me, this frame of reference, this one rebirth, this amnesia, this entire aggregate of limitations in time and space. That's consciousness, that's the mirror like wisdom of consciousness.

F**k.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by MalaBeads » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:29 am

KDT,

All i can say is Whoa. And glad you got all that off your chest. I do think you are still in the honeymoon phase and I also think you have taken your practice very, very seriously. Which is good, youshould take it seriously if i may be permitted to say such a thing. I just hope you can relax somewhere along the line. Practice doesnt have to be that grim (although i applaud your practice thus far and your insights).

As the man says, Dont Worry, Be Happy. (If you can).

Ciao.
Last edited by MalaBeads on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wake up call

Post by MiphamFan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:34 am

You did not make your point clear (if you had one), Karma Dondrup Tashi.

That sounded like a crazy rant.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by theanarchist » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:12 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote: When you receive authorization to self generate and complete the yidam, you're no longer a practitioner. You're not just nailed to a metaphor or symbol or simile. You're nailed to the flesh and blood guru, which means you're nailed to the lineage. You're a holder of that lineage. You're not just sitting on a cushion any more but a chair of office. And what are you going to say from that position of responsibility.


Not much, because this isn't about some sort of ego-clinging, as you apparently assume with your you-this, you-that duty trip aria. Realisation of emptiness nature/buddha nature doesn't work that way.

Practicing vajrayana is not the same as becoming a CEO in a big multinational company.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Arnoud » Sun Jul 19, 2015 12:15 pm

ngodrup wrote:Ok so a vajra sibling posted this elsewhere. And the request was made by Rinpoche himself,
to quote him on it, so out goes this little note.

Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche said today in front of a large group of about 800 practitioners,
that he thinks the young Tibetan lineage holders coming up in general are quite unimpressive.
They're lazy and spoiled, and they need to do a lot better.

His goal of telling us was to a) shame them via back biting (he said this, not me.) by circulating
what he said on the internet. b) exceed the "lineage holders" by becoming great practitioners and
with a lot of knowledge ourselves, thereby shaming them into improving themselves.

He explicitly said that *some* Lamas even give empowerments for practices they haven't
themselves received. So we must basically become better than them, and thereby insisting
on qualified, experienced teachers that actually meet our needs as serious practitioners. So
maybe they will step up to the plate, as it were.
Interesting. I personally am more impressed with the younger generation (okay, just a couple) than with those of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's generation. To me, that seems like an almost lost generation.
I concur with Malcolm otherwise that the best Tulkus are still in Tibet. I guess it is the Indian influence which makes me unable to connect to most Lamas having grown up in exile.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Ivo » Sun Jul 19, 2015 5:54 pm

Very interesting thread, with the exception of some long rant-like passage.
It is very funny that Dzongsar Khyentse is finally saying something like this. Some years ago while he was staying in my house I tried to have this exact conversation with him. He was very adamant that his only task was to educate the young tibetan tulkus and I tried in every possible way to explain to him that this is a totally lost cause and that his energy better go elsewhere. At that time he was not ready for such ideas at all, he obviously felt that he would possibly betray his own teachers vision if he goes another route. Now, what he said seems is in fact too little too late, as such a massive damage has been done to the tulku system in recent years by the young tulkus themselves, that the whole thing is doomed. Seeing him basically call for "outside help" while at one point he did have the power to do something real himself, but decided not to is sad.

I am very much with Malcolm on this issue, on all points. I have witnessed the raising of a very, very major Nyingma tulku, which left me utterly unimpressed in all respects. Also, what some young, and already not so young tulkus are doing currently is utterly deplorable. In fact the instances of transmissions without lineage are not just a few, this is becoming a real problem, not to mention dissemination of teachings which carry serious samaya to unqualified audiences. At the same time I am in the position to currently take care of someone who is a genuine reincarnation and the choice had to be made wether to get him in the established tulku system or not, with all possible implications both ways. I finally chose not to. There are still some old lamas who could probably raise a genuine reincarnation in a proper way, however they are very few and mostly in Tibet. The only real qualifications of a teacher are genuine lineage, real knowledge and vast meditation experience and realization. For Dzogchen, if we really want to be serious, one has to be familiar with the 3-rd vision of thogyal. Traditional tibetan tulku pedigree has no bearing these days, it really means nothing, except to those fascinated by titles. Even the old genuine tibetan tulkus, they have earned their reputation with experience and qualities.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jul 19, 2015 6:39 pm

DKR just indicted the tulku system for giving a wrong view of reincarnation, at around 38 minutes into the first session

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Re: Wake up call

Post by Punya » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 pm

It is very funny that Dzongsar Khyentse is finally saying something like this.


DJKR has been saying this sort of thing in public for a number of years including in the film Tulku, which was released in 2009.
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Re: Wake up call

Post by kirtu » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:53 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote: I'm curious why a society so set on egalitarianism that there is a tendency to gloss the student teacher relationship as ordinary is also obsessed with tulkus.
Most Americans don't believe in egalitarianism.
But we're playing with wizards and magic while Tibetans are worried about, in part, the capital of religious dynasties and careers....It's probably projection on my side, but what I took from Dzongsar Khyentse was a goad to us converts to smarten up and get more serious as well.
So you answer you own question.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Wake up call

Post by kirtu » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:56 pm

MiphamFan wrote:If you are a Vajrayana practitioner you should be concerned for how the lineages will continue. I hope more Westerners can hold and pass on lineages.
Except in rare cases this will not happen for at least a generation.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Wake up call

Post by kirtu » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:05 pm

Urgyen Dorje wrote: Lama comes here and says the big fishes should take care of little ones. So us senior students should teach the little ones. Garchen Rinpoche says the same thing all the time.
Many "senior" students have little knowledge and not much bodhicitta. There's little there.
Lama also says that everyone should know how to umze and choppon the practices.
Set up classes and put the trained people on a rotating schedule. In other words provide the opportunity for training people and ask them to step up. Many will (well, some will at least).
So then there are people who try to do this and then people think they are being inappropriate. We've had American monastics and teachers come to us, friends of some of us, and people get uncomfortable. Who said you could do this! And if they aren't attacked on credentials they're attacked on style. That's not how lama would talk about that! Well, sorry, lama is a seventy year old Tibetan dude from Kham, this is a 30 year old American dude. But I'm not comfortable with it!
This is of course another problem. Probably one way around this is to do short retreats together. This way people can develop merit and insight together. This could smooth over some problems in expression and other social difficulties.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Wake up call

Post by ngodrup » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:49 pm

Fact is, DJKR is in fact engaged in educating young Tulkus both Asian and Western.
Fact is, he's also training "laypeople" and others who are not recognized as Tulkus, even if they might be.
There are great old school Lamas of of the elder rank who are training younger people--
Tulkus included. Most notably, Chartal Rinpoche has raised Dudjom Yangsi and others under very strict
traditional ways. Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, and others recently passed, did the same.

So they are not giving up on Tulkus, per se...

Rinpoche also gave another analogy on Thursday. He said that if people insist on better movies,
and don't go to see mediocre ones, studios will be forced to put out better movies. If we students
practice and study better, the Lamas have to get up to speed with us! He said this.

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Re: Wake up call

Post by kirtu » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:Can anyone point me to a reference in either sūtra or tantra, Nyingma or Sarma, that says, "In the last 500 years of the Dharma, the only way the Dharma will be preserved is through recognizing small children as the reincarnations of dead masters"?
You know for a fact that the claims supporting tulku recognition are selective readings of sutras and hagiographic material usually related to purported prophecies originating with Padmasambhava (or Shakyamuni in the case of sutric sources) down to visions and declarations of teachers that other find authoritative.

So from Incarnation, Chapter 2
In the ninth century, Guru Padmasambhava gave a prophecy to the king (King Trisong Detsen) about the king's future tulkus:

Lord, you will serve beings in India for (the next) thirteen lives,
After that, in the region of Lungmar of Lhotrag,
You will take birth as Nima Ozer, a master of kama and terma teachings
And you will serve beings through esoteric activities,
After that, in Pangje of Lhotrag,
You will manifest as Chokyi Wangchuk
This is a quotation from: Myang sprul sku Nyi ma od zer kyi rnam thar gsal ba'i me long (you can see the ref if you wish from the bibligraphy in the book - my browser doesn't support copying text from the Kindle Cloud reader).

The sutric interpretations for similar prophecies can be found in Enthronement but of course these appear to be interpretations and not actual citations.

The funny thing too is that people somehow believe tulkus get better training than ordinary people. Really, this is a fantasy. The fact is that young tulkus are often put to work at a very young age raising money for their monasteries, and as a result, they often have very inferior training compared with normal scholars in shedras.
Well this has to be fixed. And of course we have now passed the point in history where we can no longer provide a basic Dharma education to everyone desiring one. So with a little work everyone can raise their level of scholarship and practice.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Wake up call

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:04 am

And along those lines, this has been discussed in other sources and here.
It is common to read that the Karmapas were the first tulkus in Tibet. In fact popular Tibetan tradition often states that tulku lines were spawned at the moment Karma Pakshi (1206-1283) recognized himself as the reincarnation of Dusum Khyenpa (1110-1193), declaring the First Karmapa. Recent research however shows us different realities. There are several instances of individuals being identified as emanations of deities such as Manjushri and Avalalokiteshvara. A well-known example is Atisha’s (982-1054) recognition of Dromton (1004/5-1064) as Avalalokiteshvara. Though later, the most famous case of this deity identification is Tsongkhapa (1357-1419) being identified as Manjushri. Besides individuals being identified as deity emanations, there is also evidence of other tulkus during the 13th century. As Leonard van der Kuijp has pointed out, the earliest accounts of Tibetans representing themselves as other Tibetan masters was in the Kadam order during the latter half of the 12th century (van der Kuijp, 28-29).
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: Wake up call

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:09 am

kirtu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Can anyone point me to a reference in either sūtra or tantra, Nyingma or Sarma, that says, "In the last 500 years of the Dharma, the only way the Dharma will be preserved is through recognizing small children as the reincarnations of dead masters"?
You know for a fact that the claims supporting tulku recognition are selective readings of sutras and hagiographic material usually related to purported prophecies originating with Padmasambhava (or Shakyamuni in the case of sutric sources) down to visions and declarations of teachers that other find authoritative.
Yes, the same citations reused for all kinds of different people.


So from Incarnation, Chapter 2
In the ninth century, Guru Padmasambhava gave a prophecy to the king (King Trisong Detsen) about the king's future tulkus:

Lord, you will serve beings in India for (the next) thirteen lives,
After that, in the region of Lungmar of Lhotrag,
You will take birth as Nima Ozer, a master of kama and terma teachings
And you will serve beings through esoteric activities,
After that, in Pangje of Lhotrag,
You will manifest as Chokyi Wangchuk
Oh, no one doubts that are predictions of rebirths in sūtra as well as tantra; but the question I asked was very pointed, "Can anyone point me to a reference in either sūtra or tantra, Nyingma or Sarma, that says, "In the last 500 years of the Dharma, the only way the Dharma will be preserved is through recognizing small children as the reincarnations of dead masters"?"

And the answer is: no where.
The funny thing too is that people somehow believe tulkus get better training than ordinary people. Really, this is a fantasy. The fact is that young tulkus are often put to work at a very young age raising money for their monasteries, and as a result, they often have very inferior training compared with normal scholars in shedras.
Well this has to be fixed. And of course we have now passed the point in history where we can no longer provide a basic Dharma education to everyone desiring one. So with a little work everyone can raise their level of scholarship and practice.
That point in history never existed.

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