Malcolm wrote: frankc wrote:
The distinction between citta and vijñāna is a false one. Citta, vijñāna and manas are all synonyms for one thing. This point of view described above has very little difference with the point of view expounded in the Yoga Sutras — the only difference in fact is that these monks are using the scheme of the skandhas, dhātus and āyatanas, whereas the Yoga Sutras use the Samkhya scheme of purusha/prakriti. What they are describing is exactly purusha.
The dinstinction isn't a false one.
Of course the distinction is a false one. The word citta
is not at all hard to translate into English.
Here is a teaching from Ajahn Dune Atulo
All Buddhas and all creatures are nothing but one citta. Besides this citta. nothing exsist. The citta which has no beginning does not appear and can not be destroyed. It is not something green or yellow. It has no shape nor appearances. It is not included in the existence or the none existence. It cannot be considered new or old, long or short, big or small because it is beyond all limitation measurement, nomination trace and comparison.
This point of view is even worse — it is basically no different than Advaita Vedanta, it is not even at the level of Yogacara. It is basically a non-Buddhist point of view.
If you have never properly studied Madhyamaka, it is easy to see why you would think this was profound.
Well it's Buddhism to the Thai forest masters. Ajahn Maha Bua was a student of Ajahn Mun, the Ajahn who developed the Thai Vipassana method partly due to visions he had like in the biographies of the ancient Tibetan Tertons. These are people that LIVED like the enlightened beings we read about in the texts. Ajahn Maha Bua was like a Thai Milarepa. And you are sitting here talking about the correct use of the word Citta when these dudes were meditating in tiger, bear, and cobra infested jungles putting their life on the line to attain the absolute. Ajahn Maha Bua would meditate from 6pm to 6am without changing his posture, this is how he described the pain. Also some other select quotes from his biography.
"....as if my whole buttock was swollen up, my bones felt like they were broken into pieces, also every joint and even my wrist felt like it was broken apart. Feeling of dukkha and very painful feelings, when they occured, were everywhere, in each bit and piece within the body" His dilliegence in meditation through the night for nine or ten nights like this caused his buttock to swell up resulting in the skin being bruised, and finally bursting and staining his robe. But because of this sitting through the night, and sitting through painful feelings, he did experience the wonder of the citta.
"This time I will practice earnestly so as to obtain good result, no matter if I will remain alive or die. I don't hope for any other thing except to be free from dukkha. In this very life I will make sure to transcend dukkha! I only say that somebody will help me to understand that magga, phala, and nibanna really exist and are attainable. Then I will give my whole life to that person and will devote my body and mind to the essence of Dhamma. I will not ask for anything else than to put everything into my practice, no matter if I am going to die. If I die I want to die practicing Dhamma, I don't want to die while retreating from my practice, or die with a deteriorated mind or a broken spirit."
" If the kilesas do not die, I will die. We cannot stay in the same place, the kilesas and I! This is unacceptable."
An inspiration to us all in our fight against the kilesas.
About the view being no different than Advaita Vedanta. Here is an excerpt from this article about Dolpopa https://yogainternational.com/article/v ... -teachings
One of the reasons yoga is often referred to as the Himalayan tradition is that in remote mountain areas like Mount Kailas, where religious bigotry could not be enforced, advanced spiritual practice and yogic experimentation were free to flourish.
Throughout history some of the world’s most advanced spiritual masters have congregated here from all over the Eastern world: India, Afghanistan, Nepal, Ladakh, China, Mongolia, and central Asia. The monks and nuns affiliated with religious institutions back home were often constrained in what they could teach or practice by the particular sect to which they belonged. But the sadhus or wandering yogis who camped near Kailas were under no such compulsion. There they could freely exchange ideas about their beliefs and compare notes about the results of their practices. Buddhist practitioners could sit down with Jain tantrics or Shaivite and Shakta ascetics to candidly discuss their spiritual experiences. One of the reasons yoga is often referred to as the Himalayan tradition is that in remote mountain areas like Mount Kailas, where religious bigotry could not be enforced, advanced spiritual practice and yogic experimentation were free to flourish.
It was in this region that Yumowa Migyo Dorje, the great 11th-century Jonangpa adept, mastered the demanding techniques of Kalachakra tantra. He passed on this sacred tradition to his students at Jonang, emphasizing the importance of genuine yogic attainment over mere intellectual knowledge. Having been nurtured in the free-thinking atmosphere of Mount Kailas, he emphasized the truths he directly experienced in meditation rather than subtle doctrines like Madhyamaka. Yumowa cautioned against accepting any doctrine that had been arrived at through logical analysis alone and that ignores what yogis actually experience in samadhi.
Two centuries later, when Dolpopa first arrived at Jonang, he found an enclave of monks and nuns diligently following the practices outlined by Yumowa. They went about their business quietly, careful not to antagonize the powerful Tibetan academic community. But Dolpopa was not the quiet type.
One of the important parts is the cautioning against accepting any doctrine that is arrived at that ignores what yogis actually experience in samadhi.
And about the Thai forest tradition on dharmawheel. Our eternal Citta is not a Mahayana eternal Citta, or a Tibetan eternal Citta, or a Theravada eternal Citta. Talking about this eternal citta from the Thai forest tradition may be able to help us understand more about Dolpopa and other Mahayana or Vajrayana teachers or schools that teach this type of thing.