Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

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MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads »

Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
jkarlins
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by jkarlins »

Don’t expect clarity from dharmawheel. Friendship, learning, inspiration maybe but not clarity.
MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads »

Gyatrul Rinpche made a somewhat cryptic comment about samaya once that I heard. He said "You don't even know what samaya is, let alone how to practice it." I thought to myself, "Ain't that the truth?"

All the rules surrounding samaya are not samaya. Rules. That shalt not. What about us rule-o-phobes? Can we not practice dharma? Certainly, the whole concept of samaya did not function in Shakyamuni's time. So when exactly did it enter the Buddhist pantheon? Does anyone know? Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Malcolm
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Malcolm »

MalaBeads wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm Gyatrul Rinpche made a somewhat cryptic comment about samaya once that I heard. He said "You don't even know what samaya is, let alone how to practice it." I thought to myself, "Ain't that the truth?"

All the rules surrounding samaya are not samaya. Rules. That shalt not. What about us rule-o-phobes? Can we not practice dharma? Certainly, the whole concept of samaya did not function in Shakyamuni's time. So when exactly did it enter the Buddhist pantheon? Does anyone know? Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
With Yoga tantra.
Tolya M
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Tolya M »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:38 pm When we talk about dependent origination, there are five: outer, inner, secret, ultimate and sucheness. If you really want to understand this, then you should go and study Lamdre with the Sakyapas.
Very interesting! Are these features (from secret to suchness) arranged some how like vajrayana style lokottara-paticcasamutpada in Upanisa Sutta?
jmlee369
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by jmlee369 »

Tenma wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:38 am Are there basic ones for practitioners that are high school freshmen that aren't so complex?
Most of what people consider samaya only comes into play when you take yoga and highest yoga tantra initiations. As mentioned previously in this thread, there is no such thing as samaya outside the context of initiations.

However, keeping any, a few, or all of the five lay precepts, and/or the commitments of refuge are a good place to start.
MalaBeads wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
Samaya is maintained as a living tradition in the tantric lineages of Tendai and Shingon. More generally, the term has diffused into East Asian Buddhist vocabulary.
PeterC
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by PeterC »

MalaBeads wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
I would politely disagree. Did you read the references linked in the first page? What the commitments *are* is not at all uncertain. The confusion arises from the various ways in which people paraphrase, interpret or summarize the intent of the commitments. Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.
MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads »

PeterC wrote: Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.
Are you suggesting to apply Hinayana methods ("just observe") to what is essentially a tantric enterprise? I thought the admonition was to "discard nothing".
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
PeterC
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by PeterC »

MalaBeads wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:08 am
PeterC wrote: Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.
Are you suggesting to apply Hinayana methods ("just observe") to what is essentially a tantric enterprise? I thought the admonition was to "discard nothing".
I was using "observe" in the sense of "follow, comply with" - e.g. "observe the Sabbath" as opposed to "observe one's navel".
Tiago Simões
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Tiago Simões »

I shared it in a different topic, I guess I'll post it here too:



:smile:
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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Josef »

Konchog1 wrote: Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:15 am
heart wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Samaya or pledges are things that you promise the deity to do during empowerment. Samvara or vows are things that you promise not to do. One of the common samaya is to keep your Samvara.
You promise the guru, not the deity.

/magnus
That doesn't match with my recollection...
It matches my recollection.
I have many samayas, none are to any deities.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Josef »

MalaBeads wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
That's because there isnt any single answer.
Samaya is between the teacher and their student.
It's not a universal rule book.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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conebeckham
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by conebeckham »

Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads »

Josef wrote: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm
MalaBeads wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
That's because there isnt any single answer.
Samaya is between the teacher and their student.

I think this is true. It seems to be the relationship between the student and teacher. I like what Magnus said too. You promise the teacher, not the diety.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
florin
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by florin »

Deity's nature, your teacher's nature and yours are all identical.
If you know your nature and rest in it the samaya is being kept.
In other words just resting in your nature is keeping all the samayas you ever had.
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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Josef »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
Absolutely.
I think this is probably the key to understanding a lot of the misconceptions about empowerment, samaya, and the purpose of deity yoga practices.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

conebeckham wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
You beat me to it.

Anyone for reviving the guru yoga threads with this as an accepted and agreed on understanding?

Just kidding. That's a lost cause.
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Vasana
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Vasana »

florin wrote: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:05 pm Deity's nature, your teacher's nature and yours are all identical.
If you know your nature and rest in it the samaya is being kept.
In other words just resting in your nature is keeping all the samayas you ever had.
This applies only to those who already have unwavering stability in uncontrived equipoise. As soon as you're in post-equipoise or engaging in day to day activities, knowing which actions of body speeh and mind are conducive to your practice and which harm it still very much applies.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
thomaslaw
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by thomaslaw »

Samaya is a practice of bhakti 'devotional faith'.

Thomas
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

thomaslaw wrote: Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:33 am Samaya is a practice of bhakti 'devotional faith'.

Thomas
I think that is sometimes one aspect of it. I don't think that's really what it's about, though. Do you have samaya, by the way, Thomas?
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