Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

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MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm

Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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jkarlins
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by jkarlins » Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:18 pm

Don’t expect clarity from dharmawheel. Friendship, learning, inspiration maybe but not clarity.

MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm

Gyatrul Rinpche made a somewhat cryptic comment about samaya once that I heard. He said "You don't even know what samaya is, let alone how to practice it." I thought to myself, "Ain't that the truth?"

All the rules surrounding samaya are not samaya. Rules. That shalt not. What about us rule-o-phobes? Can we not practice dharma? Certainly, the whole concept of samaya did not function in Shakyamuni's time. So when exactly did it enter the Buddhist pantheon? Does anyone know? Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:51 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm
Gyatrul Rinpche made a somewhat cryptic comment about samaya once that I heard. He said "You don't even know what samaya is, let alone how to practice it." I thought to myself, "Ain't that the truth?"

All the rules surrounding samaya are not samaya. Rules. That shalt not. What about us rule-o-phobes? Can we not practice dharma? Certainly, the whole concept of samaya did not function in Shakyamuni's time. So when exactly did it enter the Buddhist pantheon? Does anyone know? Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
With Yoga tantra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Tolya M
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Tolya M » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:38 pm
When we talk about dependent origination, there are five: outer, inner, secret, ultimate and sucheness. If you really want to understand this, then you should go and study Lamdre with the Sakyapas.
Very interesting! Are these features (from secret to suchness) arranged some how like vajrayana style lokottara-paticcasamutpada in Upanisa Sutta?

jmlee369
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by jmlee369 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:16 am

Tenma wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:38 am
Are there basic ones for practitioners that are high school freshmen that aren't so complex?
Most of what people consider samaya only comes into play when you take yoga and highest yoga tantra initiations. As mentioned previously in this thread, there is no such thing as samaya outside the context of initiations.

However, keeping any, a few, or all of the five lay precepts, and/or the commitments of refuge are a good place to start.
MalaBeads wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:16 pm
Is it just a Tibetan thing? No other branches of dharma practice seem to have it. Wondering about the whole thing.
Samaya is maintained as a living tradition in the tantric lineages of Tendai and Shingon. More generally, the term has diffused into East Asian Buddhist vocabulary.

PeterC
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by PeterC » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:18 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm
Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
I would politely disagree. Did you read the references linked in the first page? What the commitments *are* is not at all uncertain. The confusion arises from the various ways in which people paraphrase, interpret or summarize the intent of the commitments. Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.

MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:08 am

PeterC wrote: Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.
Are you suggesting to apply Hinayana methods ("just observe") to what is essentially a tantric enterprise? I thought the admonition was to "discard nothing".
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

PeterC
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by PeterC » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:34 am

MalaBeads wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:08 am
PeterC wrote: Life is considerably simpler if one discards all this elaboration and just observes them.
Are you suggesting to apply Hinayana methods ("just observe") to what is essentially a tantric enterprise? I thought the admonition was to "discard nothing".
I was using "observe" in the sense of "follow, comply with" - e.g. "observe the Sabbath" as opposed to "observe one's navel".

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:04 pm

I shared it in a different topic, I guess I'll post it here too:



:smile:

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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it

Post by Josef » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:32 pm

Konchog1 wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2013 12:15 am
heart wrote:
Konchog1 wrote:Samaya or pledges are things that you promise the deity to do during empowerment. Samvara or vows are things that you promise not to do. One of the common samaya is to keep your Samvara.
You promise the guru, not the deity.

/magnus
That doesn't match with my recollection...
It matches my recollection.
I have many samayas, none are to any deities.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Josef » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm

MalaBeads wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm
Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
That's because there isnt any single answer.
Samaya is between the teacher and their student.
It's not a universal rule book.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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conebeckham
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by conebeckham » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

MalaBeads
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by MalaBeads » Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:33 pm
MalaBeads wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:58 pm
Well, the title of this thread Is still true.

There are so many opinions here. Even among the lamas. The topic is not any clearer.
That's because there isnt any single answer.
Samaya is between the teacher and their student.

I think this is true. It seems to be the relationship between the student and teacher. I like what Magnus said too. You promise the teacher, not the diety.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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florin
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by florin » Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:05 pm

Deity's nature, your teacher's nature and yours are all identical.
If you know your nature and rest in it the samaya is being kept.
In other words just resting in your nature is keeping all the samayas you ever had.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Josef
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:52 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm
Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
Absolutely.
I think this is probably the key to understanding a lot of the misconceptions about empowerment, samaya, and the purpose of deity yoga practices.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

smcj
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by smcj » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:09 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:33 pm
Thinking that the deity and the guru are different is a misunderstanding of empowerment, and can be argued to be a cause for not even receiving samaya.

Just throwing that out there.....
You beat me to it.

Anyone for reviving the guru yoga threads with this as an accepted and agreed on understanding?

Just kidding. That's a lost cause.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Vasana
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Vasana » Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:22 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:05 pm
Deity's nature, your teacher's nature and yours are all identical.
If you know your nature and rest in it the samaya is being kept.
In other words just resting in your nature is keeping all the samayas you ever had.
This applies only to those who already have unwavering stability in uncontrived equipoise. As soon as you're in post-equipoise or engaging in day to day activities, knowing which actions of body speeh and mind are conducive to your practice and which harm it still very much applies.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

thomaslaw
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:33 am

Samaya is a practice of bhakti 'devotional faith'.

Thomas

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Everybody speaks about samaya, but nobody knows what it is.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:27 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 2:33 am
Samaya is a practice of bhakti 'devotional faith'.

Thomas
I think that is sometimes one aspect of it. I don't think that's really what it's about, though. Do you have samaya, by the way, Thomas?

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