Are zygotes humans?

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MiphamFan
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Are zygotes humans?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Mar 09, 2016 3:58 pm

Would zygotes be considered human life under Vajrayana embryology?

Would IVF treatments which involve generating multiple zygotes and only implanting one be against Dharma?

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Malcolm
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:04 pm

MiphamFan wrote:Would zygotes be considered human life under Vajrayana embryology?

Would IVF treatments which involve generating multiple zygotes and only implanting one be against Dharma?
Generally yes, since they are all viable human births.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MiphamFan
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by MiphamFan » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:08 pm

So Buddhists shouldn't do that kind of IVF?


Apparently the zygotes can be stored and donated
There may be leftover embryos or eggs from IVF procedures if the woman for whom they were originally created has successfully carried one or more pregnancies to term. With the woman's or couple's permission, these may be donated to help other women or couples as a means of third party reproduction.

In embryo donation, these extra embryos are given to other couples or women for transfer with the goal of producing a successful pregnancy. The resulting child is considered the child of the woman who carries it and gives birth, and not the child of the donor, the same as occurs with egg donation or sperm donation.

Typically, genetic parents donate the eggs to a fertility clinic or embryo bank where they are preserved by oocyte cryopreservation or embryo cryopreservation until a carrier is found for them. Typically the process of matching the embryo(s) with the prospective parents is conducted by the agency itself, at which time the clinic transfers ownership of the embryos to the prospective parents.[76]

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Malcolm
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:21 pm

MiphamFan wrote:So Buddhists shouldn't do that kind of IVF?


Apparently the zygotes can be stored and donated
If they do, they should donate the other zygotes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Ayu
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Ayu » Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:25 pm

In The Tibetan Book Of The Death Chögyam Trungpa talks about "entering the Mother's womb".
I can't imagine somebody would feel attracted to enter a culture dish in a refrigerator.
But maybe it's possible. :shrug:
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Grigoris
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:Generally yes, since they are all viable human births.
They are not viable, they are in a petri dish for crying out loud, how can they be viable without the presence of uterus???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by newbie » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:05 pm

NIH will not fund any use of gene-editing technologies in human embryos. The concept of altering the human germline in embryos for clinical purposes has been debated over many years from many different perspectives, and has been viewed almost universally as a line that should not be crossed.

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Malcolm
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:06 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Generally yes, since they are all viable human births.
They are not viable, they are in a petri dish for crying out loud, how can they be viable without the presence of uterus???
They are viable since when they are implanted a human being comes out. They can also be frozen, kind of a hellish bardo state, but what the hell. Samsara.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Losal Samten
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Losal Samten » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:They can also be frozen, kind of a hellish bardo state, but what the hell. Samsara.
The being is unconscious at that point in gestation isn't it?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Malcolm
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:11 pm

Mother's Lap wrote:
Malcolm wrote:They can also be frozen, kind of a hellish bardo state, but what the hell. Samsara.
The being is unconscious at that point in gestation isn't it?
Indeed, but who said hell was only a sensation?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by newbie » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:14 pm

To clarify, I am a human being first. I would hate to have someone rewrite me without my approval. I stand by NIH position.

Have a good day, people! I'm out.

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Grigoris
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:They are viable since when they are implanted a human being comes out.
Sorry dude, but without the presence of a functioning uterus they are not viable. No matter how you frame it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:57 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Sorry dude
He's a Doctor, and a respected teacher....would you talk to your teacher like that ?
The Universe flowing through my veins...stars falling from my eyes......rocks rolling in my head...lemon juice dripping from my chin....

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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by MiphamFan » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:30 am

If a zygote splits into two and identical twins result, they are not the same human though.

But I guess this has no bearing on whether a single zygote is considered a human life or not.

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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by newbie » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:16 am

MiphamFan wrote:If a zygote splits into two and identical twins result, they are not the same human though.

But I guess this has no bearing on whether a single zygote is considered a human life or not.
If all the conditions are met, the zygote has the potential to become a human.

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Grigoris
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:26 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:Sorry dude
He's a Doctor, and a respected teacher....would you talk to your teacher like that ?
You wouldn't happen to be trying to use the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority would you?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by newbie » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:07 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Malcolm wrote:They are viable since when they are implanted a human being comes out.
Sorry dude, but without the presence of a functioning uterus they are not viable. No matter how you frame it.
Why would you be sorry when an implantation has been mentioned? I did not figure out yet the communication between the host and the blastocyst but I'm working at it.
(I'm afraid this is no longer buddhism for me but why not have a look at it?)

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Grigoris
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:14 pm

How difficult is it to understand that without a uterus to gestate in a zygote is not viable?

I mean, really!

Kindergarten level biology people!!!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:01 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:How difficult is it to understand that without a uterus to gestate in a zygote is not viable?

I mean, really!

Kindergarten level biology people!!!

How about "test tube baby's" ?

But i guess even aliens grow their zygotes (half human), inside the human female uterus until they are viable enough....


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Re: Are zygotes humans?

Post by newbie » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:55 pm

As soon as the fertilized egg finds itself in the uterus (best on the upper part of the posterior wall), it will start producing hCG which permits its implantation. The natural way, the blastocyst is embedded into the endometrium by day 5 or 6. So you need good timing.
HCG production peaks around 60 to 70 days of gestation, decline by 80, and then increase until term.
The embryo will develop germ layers (ectoderm, mesoderm, endoderm) around day 14. From these layers later form body structures: organs, tissues.

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