Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

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diamind
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Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by diamind » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:14 pm

Hi,

is Dzongsar khyentse a monk? or there's some other reason he wheres robes like monk?

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:54 pm

I have never seen him wearing monk's robes. Where have you seen it?

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:09 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:I have never seen him wearing monk's robes. Where have you seen it?

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He wears monk robes all the time dude!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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deff
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by deff » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:29 pm

Kelly Roberts: Why do you sometimes wear monk’s robes?

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche: In Buddhism, we talk about several different stages of degeneration. There’s one degenerated time that Buddha called tagtsam zinpey du, the time when monastic robes are maintained just as a mark or symbol. That’s where we are now. At least I’m trying to hold on to that symbol.

from: http://www.lionsroar.com/dzongsar-khyen ... mate-look/ :smile:

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heart
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by heart » Wed Apr 06, 2016 5:58 pm

diamind wrote:Hi,

is Dzongsar khyentse a monk? or there's some other reason he wheres robes like monk?
He dress as a lama, which is exactly what he is. In Tibetan Buddhism red robes don't necessarily mean that you are a monk.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

diamind
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by diamind » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:13 pm

heart wrote:
diamind wrote:Hi,

is Dzongsar khyentse a monk? or there's some other reason he wheres robes like monk?
He dress as a lama, which is exactly what he is. In Tibetan Buddhism red robes don't necessarily mean that you are a monk.

/magnus
Then what does it mean?

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by DGA » Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:47 pm

diamind wrote:
heart wrote:
diamind wrote:Hi,

is Dzongsar khyentse a monk? or there's some other reason he wheres robes like monk?
He dress as a lama, which is exactly what he is. In Tibetan Buddhism red robes don't necessarily mean that you are a monk.

/magnus
Then what does it mean?
In this case, it means that he is a lama who wears red robes. He has his own reasons for doing so.

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Wed Apr 06, 2016 7:29 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:I have never seen him wearing monk's robes. Where have you seen it?

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Karma Yeshe
He wears monk robes all the time dude!
I've never seen him with wearing a yellow Saṅgati. Only the outer red robe that more or less any tibetan lama wears nowadays.

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Karma Yeshe

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:45 pm

Karma_Yeshe wrote:I've never seen him with wearing a yellow Saṅgati.
I'm not sure I have either, but the yellow sangati is not worn constantly by Vajrayana monks anyway, only for certain rituals (when conferring Refuge for example).
Only the outer red robe that more or less any tibetan lama wears nowadays.
And the shantab... And the shirt and... The lay lama robe is different anyway, it's more like the East Asian style robe.

Anyway, in the quote by Rinpoche he basically admits to wearing monk's robes, so I don't understand why everybody is in denial about the matter.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

diamind
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by diamind » Wed Apr 06, 2016 11:55 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote:I've never seen him with wearing a yellow Saṅgati.
I'm not sure I have either, but the yellow sangati is not worn constantly by Vajrayana monks anyway, only for certain rituals (when conferring Refuge for example).
Only the outer red robe that more or less any tibetan lama wears nowadays.
And the shantab... And the shirt and... The lay lama robe is different anyway, it's more like the East Asian style robe.

Anyway, in the quote by Rinpoche he basically admits to wearing monk's robes, so I don't understand why everybody is in denial about the matter.
So does that mean he is a monk? Who have him his ordination?

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Punya » Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:03 am

No, he's not a monk. His reason for wearing robes is explained in the article already linked. Many Tibetan teachers who aren't monks do this. Again as already explained.

Perhaps if you said why you are asking this question someone could answer it in a way that makes sense to you.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Adamantine » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:42 am

I know many Nyingma lamas (some are my own Lamas) who dress the same, and yet are actually ngakpas. . . outwardly it can be confusing. I personally prefer the traditional white/striped ngakpa dress since it differentiates devoted practitioners who are serious yet who hold their own types of vows particular to tantric householder yogis, from those with the monastic ordination. I think this mainly is confusing outside of Himalayan communities. In other parts of Asia like Thailand etc. seeing Lamas who are non-celibate wearing robes that appear monastic from their POV can be really disturbing. This can cause problems. I've known it to happen. This thread is another example. I can't criticize DKR as I do believe him to be a great master. I am just speaking in general . . .

From the words of the great Ngakpa yogi Kyabje Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche:
"Once, on a previous occasion in Dharmsala, India, the Tibetan government office of Dharma affairs organized a five-day event focusing on general and specific aspects of Tibetan religious and secular issues. The sangha of monks, nuns and ngakpas, came together in order to accumulate 100,000 tsog accumulations from Rigdzin Dungdrup of Rigdzin Godem’s Northern Ter.

On that occasion, initially, the ngakpas were belittled and called ‘phagen.’ Although a general order had been issued that the office of religious affairs would provide everyone with five rupees apiece each day, the ngakpas were not given any. The following day, myself and another ngakpa decided that we would go to the feast gathering attired in our white clothing and full nagkpa accouterments and that if we were not shown proper respect and given our money accordingly, we would report the incident directly not only to the Dala’I Lama, but to the media. The next morning, we went as planned. When we arrived at the door of the assembly hall, some officials from the religious affairs department were seated upon stools in the doorway collecting donations. As soon as they saw the two of us, one of them said, “Look! Some handsome looking ngakpas have arrived!” Another one replied, “They are Tso Pema ngakpas.” Subsequently, we received our five rupees without any argument.

It is our own fault that ngakpas are belittled. It is fine for a ngakpa to be a father, but when ngakpas enter the assembly hall and are afraid to sit in the assembly row, then they shave their heads or wear monastic clothing as well as shave their heads, when they wear ordinary chupas and do not dress in the various accouterments of ngakpa attire, this is what happens.

In bordering countries such as Bhutan and Sikkim, there are ngakpas who don’t keep their hair long or wear white skirts. They dress in monk’s clothing, but have wives and are family lineage holders. They are called ‘serkyim’ ngakpas. In Tibet, there are a few gomdes like this, one of them is called ‘Wonpo’ (bdon po). Again, in this place, ngakpas have bald heads and wear informal chupas.They pretend to be ngakpas but they spend their lives doing business and performing rituals for ordinary pursuits, so they are neither ngakpas nor monks. The ordinary chupa is the dress of worldly, lay people."

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From http://saraswatibhawan.org/an-historic- ... long-hair/
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:00 am

:good:

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:44 pm

:good: Adamantine! Do you know what the Wylie for phagen is? I'm having trouble looking that up as it's spelled.

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:59 pm

tomamundsen wrote: :good: Adamantine! Do you know what the Wylie for phagen is? I'm having trouble looking that up as it's spelled.
Maybe this: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/pha_rgan

Regarding the OP, there's some relevant info here:
http://all-otr.org/public-talks/8-the-grilling
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:22 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
tomamundsen wrote: :good: Adamantine! Do you know what the Wylie for phagen is? I'm having trouble looking that up as it's spelled.
Maybe this: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/pha_rgan
Ah, thanks dzogchungpa! :thanks:

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by tns225 » Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:18 pm


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Adamantine
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
tomamundsen wrote: :good: Adamantine! Do you know what the Wylie for phagen is? I'm having trouble looking that up as it's spelled.
Maybe this: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/pha_rgan

Regarding the OP, there's some relevant info here:
http://all-otr.org/public-talks/8-the-grilling
Well from that article I take exception to this, very odd comment: "And even Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, for example, didn’t ever wear the robes of a ngakpa; he always dressed as a householder."

What would you say he is wearing here? Image

If you look at this album you'll see almost every photo he is wearing ngakpa robes. . .on various occasions. http://www.tersar.org/lineage-and-teach ... s-gallery/
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:05 pm

Adamantine wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
tomamundsen wrote: :good: Adamantine! Do you know what the Wylie for phagen is? I'm having trouble looking that up as it's spelled.
Maybe this: http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/pha_rgan

Regarding the OP, there's some relevant info here:
http://all-otr.org/public-talks/8-the-grilling
Well from that article I take exception to this, very odd comment: "And even Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche, for example, didn’t ever wear the robes of a ngakpa; he always dressed as a householder."

What would you say he is wearing here? Image

If you look at this album you'll see almost every photo he is wearing ngakpa robes. . .on various occasions. http://www.tersar.org/lineage-and-teach ... s-gallery/
He is wearing a stripped zen over a lay person's robe. But normally, HH Dudjom R. dressed like a Tibetan aristocrat.

Nakpa robes mean the whole kit:

Image

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Adamantine
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Re: Dzongsar khyentse... monk?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Apr 08, 2016 3:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
He is wearing a stripped zen over a lay person's robe. But normally, HH Dudjom R. dressed like a Tibetan aristocrat.

Nakpa robes mean the whole kit
Well wearing a striped ngakpa zen while keeping long hair still differentiates you from being a) a monk and b) merely a layperson with primarily worldly concerns even if you aren't wearing the entire uniform. I think HH Dudjom R was at a level where relative things did not matter much however he still made the effort to show the ngakpa signs at various occasions which contradicts the sentiment in that article. But if you want to split hairs there's this pic and more: Image
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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