Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

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Lucas Oliveira
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Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Mon Aug 29, 2016 3:16 pm

Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Mingyur Rinpoche explains emptiness, "one of the most misunderstood words" of Buddhist philosophy

“The sense of openness people experience when they simply rest their minds is known in Buddhism as emptiness, which is probably one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist philosophy. It is hard enough for Buddhists to understand the term, but Western readers have an even more difficult time, because many of the early translations of Sanskrit and Tibetan texts interpreted emptiness as “the Void” or nothingness—mistakenly equating emptiness with the idea that nothing at all exists. Nothing could be further from the truth the Buddha sought to describe.

While the Buddha did teach that the nature of mind—in fact the nature of all phenomena—is emptiness, he didn’t mean that their nature was truly empty, like a vacuum. He said it was emptiness, which in the Tibetan language is made up of two words: tongpa-nyi. The word tongpa means “empty”, but only in the sense of something beyond our ability to perceive with our senses and our capacity to conceptualize. Maybe a better translation would be “inconceivable” or “unnamable.” The word nyi, meanwhile, doesn’t have any particular meaning in everyday Tibetan conversation. But when added to another word it conveys a sense of “possibility”—a sense that anything can arise, anything can happen. So when Buddhist talk about emptiness, we don’t mean nothingness, but rather an unlimited potential for anything to appear, change, or disappear.


Source English: http://inthefootstepsofthebuddha.com/an ... emptiness/

Source in Portuguese: http://dharmalog.com/2016/07/27/mingyur ... a-budista/



:anjali:
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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:29 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Mingyur Rinpoche explains emptiness, "one of the most misunderstood words" of Buddhist philosophy

“The sense of openness people experience when they simply rest their minds is known in Buddhism as emptiness, which is probably one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist philosophy. It is hard enough for Buddhists to understand the term, but Western readers have an even more difficult time, because many of the early translations of Sanskrit and Tibetan texts interpreted emptiness as “the Void” or nothingness—mistakenly equating emptiness with the idea that nothing at all exists. Nothing could be further from the truth the Buddha sought to describe.

While the Buddha did teach that the nature of mind—in fact the nature of all phenomena—is emptiness, he didn’t mean that their nature was truly empty, like a vacuum. He said it was emptiness, which in the Tibetan language is made up of two words: tongpa-nyi. The word tongpa means “empty”, but only in the sense of something beyond our ability to perceive with our senses and our capacity to conceptualize. Maybe a better translation would be “inconceivable” or “unnamable.” The word nyi, meanwhile, doesn’t have any particular meaning in everyday Tibetan conversation. But when added to another word it conveys a sense of “possibility”—a sense that anything can arise, anything can happen. So when Buddhist talk about emptiness, we don’t mean nothingness, but rather an unlimited potential for anything to appear, change, or disappear.


Source English: http://inthefootstepsofthebuddha.com/an ... emptiness/

Source in Portuguese: http://dharmalog.com/2016/07/27/mingyur ... a-budista/



:anjali:

Tashi delek LO,

Difficult sometimes is the empty of self and the real Self.
There is no self existent, in the mind of karma or it is empty of that , results in the real Self Identity. Empty means here finally, no to something.

That is all based upon the understanding /realising, of one's empty Mind / real Self.
But what is Emptiness here ? That could be the inherent present qualities of for instance Energy / Tsal.

So the understandings about Emptiness of one's own Mind and Nature, depends in how far the Emptiness of one's own Mind is "developed". in relation to one's self (of karma).

Therefore studying etc. Emptiness in the 3 Teachings like Sutra / Tantra and Dzogchen, is
important on the Path.

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

Malcolm
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:08 pm

Stong pa translates śūnya. Nyid translates = śūnyatā. The first part means "empty," the suffix is equivalent to "ness" in English, hence the term "emptiness" is really the most accurate translation of that term into English.

Here, Mingyur Rinpoche is not carefully distinguishing two different things: 1) the experience of nonconceptuality, which is often termed "the experience of emptiness" in Tibetan texts, and 2) the emptiness which is the doctrine of the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras and Madhyamaka. The latter cannot be experienced in conceptually in meditation. The former can.

Lucas Oliveira wrote:Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Mingyur Rinpoche explains emptiness, "one of the most misunderstood words" of Buddhist philosophy

“The sense of openness people experience when they simply rest their minds is known in Buddhism as emptiness, which is probably one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist philosophy. It is hard enough for Buddhists to understand the term, but Western readers have an even more difficult time, because many of the early translations of Sanskrit and Tibetan texts interpreted emptiness as “the Void” or nothingness—mistakenly equating emptiness with the idea that nothing at all exists. Nothing could be further from the truth the Buddha sought to describe.

While the Buddha did teach that the nature of mind—in fact the nature of all phenomena—is emptiness, he didn’t mean that their nature was truly empty, like a vacuum. He said it was emptiness, which in the Tibetan language is made up of two words: tongpa-nyi. The word tongpa means “empty”, but only in the sense of something beyond our ability to perceive with our senses and our capacity to conceptualize. Maybe a better translation would be “inconceivable” or “unnamable.” The word nyi, meanwhile, doesn’t have any particular meaning in everyday Tibetan conversation. But when added to another word it conveys a sense of “possibility”—a sense that anything can arise, anything can happen. So when Buddhist talk about emptiness, we don’t mean nothingness, but rather an unlimited potential for anything to appear, change, or disappear.


Source English: http://inthefootstepsofthebuddha.com/an ... emptiness/

Source in Portuguese: http://dharmalog.com/2016/07/27/mingyur ... a-budista/



:anjali:

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by mindyourmind » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:03 pm

Thanks, Malcolm.
That clarifies some of the presumably unintentional mixing of those concepts that have confused me in the past.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

Namkhai Norbu

Ngwang tenzin
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Ngwang tenzin » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:11 pm

What's the difference between emptiness and clarity?

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:17 pm

Ngwang tenzin wrote:What's the difference between emptiness and clarity?
Emptiness is the absence of the four extremes in a mind stream. Clarity is the mind's capacity to illuminate objects. They are inseparable. Rocks don't have clarity, being inert, but they are empty.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Ngwang tenzin » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:27 pm

Thanks!

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by muni » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:54 am

Maybe a better translation would be “inconceivable” or “unnamable.
Of course there are regarding emptiness the many helpful analytical practices to unravel our habitual perception by our clinging.

This by Mingyur Rinpoche La seems to me regarding practice or pointing to, to be able to actualize I guess ( emptiness = nondual nature). It then remains not "an object for us the subject".

It are for me words what pacify more words and so allows the always active jumping mind to rest or to settle instead of trying to figure out emptiness. And this leads to this quote:
Bodhisattvas who wish to quickly attain the unsurpassable perfect complete enlightenment should not devote themselves to words. Those who want to learn the path of enlightenment should devote themselves to practice. Why is that so? It is because through words enlightenment will not be gained even in an eon; whereas by realizing the truth, liberation occurs in an instant.
This turns again to the pointing finger, I guess. But there is no reason to reject words neither.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:44 am

better knowing the goal, we will endeavor to correctly reach it.

:namaste:
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:44 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:better knowing the goal, we will endeavour to correctly reach it.

:namaste:

Tashi dlek LO,

Knowing the target, then we can follow a Path in Buddhism dependent on our motivation and level of understanding (karma).

Realising Emptiness that is the core here, as well of the inherent Mind as well as of the inner/ outer objects etc.


Therefore to have a Guru, that is very needed in Buddha Dharma.
To compare one's study here aboard that could be very useful.
Except the "secret" Yoga topics, everything else is here explained or can be explained.

So what do you think is it still "strange" to discus Emptiness here ?

There are the 16/18/20 forms of emptiness which could help as a starting discussion.
They are studied in all the Tibetan Traditions.

For instance, Madhyamakavatara by Candrakirti, lists 16 types of emptiness.
Some are difficult to understand......

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... _emptiness

Mutsug Marro
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Stewart » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:Stong pa translates śūnya. Nyid translates = śūnyatā. The first part means "empty," the suffix is equivalent to "ness" in English, hence the term "emptiness" is really the most accurate translation of that term into English.

Here, Mingyur Rinpoche is not carefully distinguishing two different things: 1) the experience of nonconceptuality, which is often termed "the experience of emptiness" in Tibetan texts, and 2) the emptiness which is the doctrine of the Prajñāpāramitā sūtras and Madhyamaka. The latter cannot be experienced in conceptually in meditation. The former can.

Lucas Oliveira wrote:Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Mingyur Rinpoche explains emptiness, "one of the most misunderstood words" of Buddhist philosophy

“The sense of openness people experience when they simply rest their minds is known in Buddhism as emptiness, which is probably one of the most misunderstood words in Buddhist philosophy. It is hard enough for Buddhists to understand the term, but Western readers have an even more difficult time, because many of the early translations of Sanskrit and Tibetan texts interpreted emptiness as “the Void” or nothingness—mistakenly equating emptiness with the idea that nothing at all exists. Nothing could be further from the truth the Buddha sought to describe.

While the Buddha did teach that the nature of mind—in fact the nature of all phenomena—is emptiness, he didn’t mean that their nature was truly empty, like a vacuum. He said it was emptiness, which in the Tibetan language is made up of two words: tongpa-nyi. The word tongpa means “empty”, but only in the sense of something beyond our ability to perceive with our senses and our capacity to conceptualize. Maybe a better translation would be “inconceivable” or “unnamable.” The word nyi, meanwhile, doesn’t have any particular meaning in everyday Tibetan conversation. But when added to another word it conveys a sense of “possibility”—a sense that anything can arise, anything can happen. So when Buddhist talk about emptiness, we don’t mean nothingness, but rather an unlimited potential for anything to appear, change, or disappear.


Source English: http://inthefootstepsofthebuddha.com/an ... emptiness/

Source in Portuguese: http://dharmalog.com/2016/07/27/mingyur ... a-budista/



:anjali:
To be fair, this teaching would most likely have been given by Rinpoche in Tibetan, translated into English, then was definitely edited by someone for his first book. Rinpoche, especially back then, and even now, doesn't speak this way in English. I find that by the time something makes it into an easily understandable book, it is quite often stripped of some meaning and often unrecognisable from the original oral teaching, which I suppose in inevitable.

I have heard Rinpoche teach on this topic many times, and I am sure that he has a firm experience and grasp of the subtleties of Emptiness, the subsequent translators and editors on the other hand, I can't be so sure.
Last edited by Stewart on Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
s.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 31, 2016 1:12 pm

Stewart wrote:
To be fair, this teaching would most likely have been given by Rinpoche in Tibetan, translated into English, then was definitely edited by someone for his first book
Fair enough.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by muni » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:18 pm

the subsequent translators and editors on the other hand, I can't be so sure.
Whatever words, which can help to stop/reduce the clinging to words, or clinging in general, is not a bad translation. Whatever translation, which fits “me” is not always a good translation.
better knowing the goal.
:meditate:
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Stewart » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:26 pm

Whatever words, which can help to stop/reduce the clinging to words, or clinging in general, is not a bad translation. Whatever translation, which fits “me” is not always a good translation.
I may need this translated.
s.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by muni » Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:10 pm

Stewart wrote:
Whatever words, which can help to stop/reduce the clinging to words, or clinging in general, is not a bad translation. Whatever translation, which fits “me” is not always a good translation.
I may need this translated.
I try here. :smile: Stop clinging to words.
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:36 am

A good reason to use words to embellish the "emptiness" would be compassion. I already turned away from Buddhism for not find the interesting empty. and I think that happens to many people. proof of this is that many Buddhist books comes with a chapter explaining that Buddhism is not nihilistic. if the void is presented as something worth the effort, perhaps the number of serious practitioners increase.

but I already have a little idea that using words is a very coarse manifestation.


:anjali:
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by muni » Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:46 am

A good reason to use words to embellish the "emptiness" would be compassion.
The beauty to use words from compassion to help.

Then translators do a good job even there is said emptiness as nondual nature, can only be expressed as what it is not. I mean regarding 'practice'.

I find “inconceivable” a great word (or unnamable) because it seems to leave no further way to grasp. This is maybe compassionate pointing? It probably doesn’t help for all of us, it would be wonderful if it was.

:namaste:
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by MalaBeads » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:52 pm

muni wrote:
Whatever words, which can help to stop/reduce the clinging to words, or clinging in general, is not a bad translation.
I couldnt agree more. Words are the source of many problems.

However, not clinging to words is easier said than done. Language is so close to us as human beings. We use words to communicate and as HHDL has pointed out we are social beings; in other words, we need to communicate.

Language, ie words, are quite deeply imbedded in our experience. We learn to use them when we are very young and therefore to uproot our dependence on them requires a bit of work. How to use language and yet not be used by it, that is the question. In order to do this you have to enter into your experience quite deeply i think.

As is said, "know thyself".

A buddhist might say, "Meditate", or just sit.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:40 pm

Lucas Oliveira wrote:A good reason to use words to embellish the "emptiness" would be compassion. I already turned away from Buddhism for not find the interesting empty. and I think that happens to many people. proof of this is that many Buddhist books comes with a chapter explaining that Buddhism is not nihilistic. if the void is presented as something worth the effort, perhaps the number of serious practitioners increase.
Tashi delek LO,

Compassion goes always hand in hand with (developing) Wisdom.

Agree all this studying of (Mahayana) Emptiness can be very boring. Further it is mostly in the beginning not correct understood. Therefore in Madyamika the 2 death ends of the rope are in case of misunderstood Emptiness, Nihilism and Eternalism.


For me this did end in Dzogchen where Emptiness represent that which sentient beings have as inherent qualities of their Mind.

So Emptiness in Buddhism is very important because it can deal like in Dzogchen with the Mind of Enlightenment. This Emptiness is creative because everything comes from it, stays for a while and dissolves again into where it came from, Emptiness.

If Emptiness , imo, would be explained in the Dzogchen Way, it would be easier to understand and avoid is then, Nihilism and Eternalism (of the wrong self/ego).

Mutsug Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

muni
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Re: Emptiness: the reality beyond reality

Post by muni » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:23 am

MalaBeads wrote:
I couldnt agree more. Words are the source of many problems.

However, not clinging to words is easier said than done. Language is so close to us as human beings. We use words to communicate and as HHDL has pointed out we are social beings; in other words, we need to communicate.

Language, ie words, are quite deeply imbedded in our experience. We learn to use them when we are very young and therefore to uproot our dependence on them requires a bit of work. How to use language and yet not be used by it, that is the question. In order to do this you have to enter into your experience quite deeply i think.

As is said, "know thyself".

A buddhist might say, "Meditate", or just sit.
Yes. We may not forget the emptiness of language. We easy are conditioned, used and bound by language. Language is phenomena-appearance-tool. Nature cannot be in a word expressed. When I say fire my mouth must be in flames.
However it must not be easy to translate words for the sake of all, in that way I understand.

The Buddha's use language only to help to awaken, which is so amazing!

Communication is great to be there for others, to interconnect.

Tilopa to Naropa: Son, appearances do not bind you; your clinging binds you.

Okay, okay, yes, meditate/sit. _/\_
The presence of space makes it possible for the whole universe to be set out within it, and yet this does not alter or condition space in any way. Although rainbows appear in the sky, they do not make any difference to the sky; it is simply that the sky makes the appearance of rainbows possible.
Phenomena adorn emptiness, but never corrupt it. Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

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