Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

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Jeff
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Jeff » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:26 am

jmlee369 wrote:There is a stage of realisation called "non-retrogression" which is widely identified with the 8th bhumi, at which point there is full retention of all realisations and powers going forward. Prior to that, bodhisattvas are susceptible to losing some of their progress, though at the level of the bhumis, it is a very subtle change compared to any loss that ordinary beings might experience. Not sure if there is a canonical source stating that they may abandon the Mahayana though.
Well said. Thank you.

discussionbuddhist
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by discussionbuddhist » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:46 pm

cky wrote:Thus I have heard: Bhumi 1 more or less equals stream entry.
From which scripture mentions this?

discussionbuddhist
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by discussionbuddhist » Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:18 pm

Tolya M wrote:In sarvastivada-vaibhashika even some arhats may fall, but they do not die in this condition.
Do the arhats that fall lose their status of arhatship? And if an arhat could fall, then it's possible for the lower level sravakas (anagami, sakrdagami and srotapanna) to fall too?

pael
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by pael » Sat Jul 01, 2017 8:01 am

discussionbuddhist wrote:
Tolya M wrote:In sarvastivada-vaibhashika even some arhats may fall, but they do not die in this condition.
Do the arhats that fall lose their status of arhatship? And if an arhat could fall, then it's possible for the lower level sravakas (anagami, sakrdagami and srotapanna) to fall too?
Nirvana sutra says:
"O good man! How is one arrived, having not yet arrived? Non-arriving is Great Nirvana. Why is one arrived? Because one eternally cuts away greed, anger and ignorance, and all evil actions of body and mouth; because one does not receive impure things; because one does not perform the four grave offences; because one does not slander the vaipulya sutras; because one does not become an icchantika, and because one does not commit the five deadly sins. For these reasons, we say that one arrives, having not yet arrived. Now, the srotapanna arrvies after 80,000 kalpas, the sakrdagamin arrives after 60,000 kalpas, the anagamin after 40,000 kalpas, and the arhat after 20,000 kalpas, and the pratyekabuddha after 10,000 kalpas. For this reason, we say that one has arrived, while not yet having arrived.
I assume no. Can someone explain this passage?
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Tolya M
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Tolya M » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:26 pm

discussionbuddhist wrote:
Tolya M wrote:In sarvastivada-vaibhashika even some arhats may fall, but they do not die in this condition.
Do the arhats that fall lose their status of arhatship? And if an arhat could fall, then it's possible for the lower level sravakas (anagami, sakrdagami and srotapanna) to fall too?

According to Kosa of Vasubandhu some types of arhats may fall, but only to the level of stream-enterer. In fact, there is a very big discussion with Sautrantikas about who and with what degree of faculties and from what is retrogressing. I can not describe all this briefly ))) This is not very relevant, because none of us is a monk and none of us is an arhat)))) The Theravavins for example do not have such a problem, because the levels of holiness they switch only through vipassana. Like darshana-marga but several times.

And even if the arhat fell:

AKB
[The noble ones who retrogress from the fruit] do not die [in the state] of having
retrogressed [bhraṣṭa] from the fruit.
Last edited by Tolya M on Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tolya M
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Tolya M » Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:39 pm

pael wrote:
discussionbuddhist wrote:
Tolya M wrote:In sarvastivada-vaibhashika even some arhats may fall, but they do not die in this condition.
Do the arhats that fall lose their status of arhatship? And if an arhat could fall, then it's possible for the lower level sravakas (anagami, sakrdagami and srotapanna) to fall too?
Nirvana sutra says:
"O good man! How is one arrived, having not yet arrived? Non-arriving is Great Nirvana. Why is one arrived? Because one eternally cuts away greed, anger and ignorance, and all evil actions of body and mouth; because one does not receive impure things; because one does not perform the four grave offences; because one does not slander the vaipulya sutras; because one does not become an icchantika, and because one does not commit the five deadly sins. For these reasons, we say that one arrives, having not yet arrived. Now, the srotapanna arrvies after 80,000 kalpas, the sakrdagamin arrives after 60,000 kalpas, the anagamin after 40,000 kalpas, and the arhat after 20,000 kalpas, and the pratyekabuddha after 10,000 kalpas. For this reason, we say that one has arrived, while not yet having arrived.
I assume no. Can someone explain this passage?
One needs to read comments to understand this. I do not know if they exist. It is very comlex to assume a possible interpretation.

discussionbuddhist
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by discussionbuddhist » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:41 am

Tolya M wrote:
According to Kosa of Vasubandhu some types of arhats may fall, but only to the level of stream-enterer. In fact, there is a very big discussion with Sautrantikas about who and with what degree of faculties and from what is retrogressing. I can not describe all this briefly ))) This is not very relevant, because none of us is a monk and none of us is an arhat)))) The Theravavins for example do not have such a problem, because the levels of holiness they switch only through vipassana. Like darshana-marga but several times.
Okay, we may not be arhats but stream-entry might be something possible for us. I'm now concerned about stream-enterers losing the sravaka status. Can stream-enterers fall and no longer be stream-enterers?

Tolya M
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Tolya M » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:53 pm

discussionbuddhist wrote:
Tolya M wrote:
According to Kosa of Vasubandhu some types of arhats may fall, but only to the level of stream-enterer. In fact, there is a very big discussion with Sautrantikas about who and with what degree of faculties and from what is retrogressing. I can not describe all this briefly ))) This is not very relevant, because none of us is a monk and none of us is an arhat)))) The Theravavins for example do not have such a problem, because the levels of holiness they switch only through vipassana. Like darshana-marga but several times.
Okay, we may not be arhats but stream-entry might be something possible for us. I'm now concerned about stream-enterers losing the sravaka status. Can stream-enterers fall and no longer be stream-enterers?
No. It is impossible. There is a great difference between an ordinary wordling and a stream-enterer. It lead some schools to maintain that there is distinct svasamvedana in the srotapanna only but not on other arya levels.

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Seeker12
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:23 pm

Konchog1 wrote: Until the Eighth Bhumi you can fall to a lesser attainment by losing Bodhicitta.

Bodhicitta is lost, as you know, by either thinking complete Enlightenment is not possible for you or creating the intention of denying Enlightenment to a being.
In Mipham Rinpoche's Khenjuk, it says that the "Undefiling Vow", which is solely in the provenance of noble beings (such as from the 1st Bhumi onwards) "cannot be permanently lost, though it can be momentarily damaged by a decline from the attainment of the result of the Lesser Vehicle. Yet, like a strong athlete [recovering from] stumbling, it will be swiftly restored again. The degeneration is merely a temporary decline from the result of the lower path".

I believe you are correct that this degeneration does not occur at all from the 8th Bhumi onwards.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:10 pm

If one wishes to understand the Ten Grounds, one ought to focus on that sutra, so named. It is chapter 26 of the Avatamsaka Sutra.

Here is a bit from the section on the Eighth Ground:
Names of the Eighth Bodhisattva Ground

“Buddha-Son, this Bodhisattva wisdom ground is called the Motionless Ground because it is indestructible; it is called the Irreversible Ground because his wisdom never regresses; it is called the Hard-to-Reach Ground because no one in the world can imagine its state; it is called the Truthfulness-of-Youth Ground because he is free from faults; it is called the Birth Ground because it is the beginning of doing everything without effort; it is called the Completion Ground because he has completed his training that requires effort; it is called the Ultimate Ground because his wisdom makes right choices; it is called the Manifestation Ground because he manifests things at will; it is called the [Spiritually] Supported Ground because no one can move it; it is called the Effortless Ground because all efforts have been made.
Here is a link to the Eight Ground chapter, with other links within that allow one to read the entire sutra.

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra35e.html

Or one can buy the print book (or e-book) of Rulu's translation, The Bodhisattva Way.
May all seek, find and follow the Path of selflessness.

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Adamantine
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Adamantine » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:17 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Konchog1 wrote: Until the Eighth Bhumi you can fall to a lesser attainment by losing Bodhicitta.

Bodhicitta is lost, as you know, by either thinking complete Enlightenment is not possible for you or creating the intention of denying Enlightenment to a being.
In Mipham Rinpoche's Khenjuk, it says that the "Undefiling Vow", which is solely in the provenance of noble beings (such as from the 1st Bhumi onwards) "cannot be permanently lost, though it can be momentarily damaged by a decline from the attainment of the result of the Lesser Vehicle. Yet, like a strong athlete [recovering from] stumbling, it will be swiftly restored again. The degeneration is merely a temporary decline from the result of the lower path".

I believe you are correct that this degeneration does not occur at all from the 8th Bhumi onwards.
Seeker can you offer the volume and page number? I looked in volume 3 which would be the logical placement and did not find your reference. Thanks.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:30 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Seeker12 wrote:
Konchog1 wrote: Until the Eighth Bhumi you can fall to a lesser attainment by losing Bodhicitta.

Bodhicitta is lost, as you know, by either thinking complete Enlightenment is not possible for you or creating the intention of denying Enlightenment to a being.
In Mipham Rinpoche's Khenjuk, it says that the "Undefiling Vow", which is solely in the provenance of noble beings (such as from the 1st Bhumi onwards) "cannot be permanently lost, though it can be momentarily damaged by a decline from the attainment of the result of the Lesser Vehicle. Yet, like a strong athlete [recovering from] stumbling, it will be swiftly restored again. The degeneration is merely a temporary decline from the result of the lower path".

I believe you are correct that this degeneration does not occur at all from the 8th Bhumi onwards.
Seeker can you offer the volume and page number? I looked in volume 3 which would be the logical placement and did not find your reference. Thanks.
https://books.google.com/books?id=zKBO6 ... %229,30%22
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Seeker12
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Re: Can one fall down from the Bodhisattava bhumi?

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:38 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Seeker12 wrote:
Konchog1 wrote: Until the Eighth Bhumi you can fall to a lesser attainment by losing Bodhicitta.

Bodhicitta is lost, as you know, by either thinking complete Enlightenment is not possible for you or creating the intention of denying Enlightenment to a being.
In Mipham Rinpoche's Khenjuk, it says that the "Undefiling Vow", which is solely in the provenance of noble beings (such as from the 1st Bhumi onwards) "cannot be permanently lost, though it can be momentarily damaged by a decline from the attainment of the result of the Lesser Vehicle. Yet, like a strong athlete [recovering from] stumbling, it will be swiftly restored again. The degeneration is merely a temporary decline from the result of the lower path".

I believe you are correct that this degeneration does not occur at all from the 8th Bhumi onwards.
Seeker can you offer the volume and page number? I looked in volume 3 which would be the logical placement and did not find your reference. Thanks.
Gateway to Knowledge, Vol 2, translated by Erik Pema Kunsang, p. 107.

On p. 105, it says, "The 'undefiling vow' is obtained through the power of attaining the level of a noble being whereby involvement in nonvirtue has been permanently turned away from."
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

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