Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

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Virgo
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Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:29 am

I have heard of people attaining full enlithenment during empowerments, but how is that possible? Doesn't the person still have their channels connected with the human body which is connected with a vision of the human realm?

I know in Dzogchen there is rainbow body but then the person no longer has human body.

Thanks,

Kevin

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:05 am

there is controversy on what enlightenment means in concrete terms -not in intellectual or belief terms-, but rigpa proof can be experienced and we can naturally enter at it eventually at any time, or through more elaborated methods.

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:19 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:but rigpa proof can be experienced and we can naturally enter at it eventually at any time, or through more elaborated methods.
Through Dzogchen teachings and practice we can have the experience of rigpa. But then we can also have dualistic vision afterwards. We are not fully enlightened at that point. What I am talking about here is someone who is in a state of mahamudra 24/7 full Buddhahood.

:twothumbsup:

Kevin

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:12 am

Virgo wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:but rigpa proof can be experienced and we can naturally enter at it eventually at any time, or through more elaborated methods.
Through Dzogchen teachings and practice we can have the experience of rigpa. But then we can also have dualistic vision afterwards. We are not fully enlightened at that point. What I am talking about here is someone who is in a state of mahamudra 24/7 full Buddhahood.

:twothumbsup:

Kevin
if mahamudra is your target, i'm tempted to say yes. but i don't know...

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:07 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Virgo wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:but rigpa proof can be experienced and we can naturally enter at it eventually at any time, or through more elaborated methods.
Through Dzogchen teachings and practice we can have the experience of rigpa. But then we can also have dualistic vision afterwards. We are not fully enlightened at that point. What I am talking about here is someone who is in a state of mahamudra 24/7 full Buddhahood.

:twothumbsup:

Kevin
if mahamudra is your target, i'm tempted to say yes. but i don't know...
Javier, I am talking about a person who has a human body. They are receiving an empowerment like Cakramasvara, and they are becoming Full Buddhas on the spot. How is that possible? They still have a human body with chanells which cause the experience of the human realm, so how can they possibly experience rigpa 24/7 until they are Buddhas? This is what I am asking. They may be able to have an experience of enlightenment for a fingersnap at times, but not 24/7. They have a human body here and now.

Kevin

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:11 am

Malcolm has commented on this phenomena several times, so perhaps we should ask him for historical examples. It is quite rare and requires much cultivation over previous lives, IIRC.
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:35 am

Virgo wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Virgo wrote: Through Dzogchen teachings and practice we can have the experience of rigpa. But then we can also have dualistic vision afterwards. We are not fully enlightened at that point. What I am talking about here is someone who is in a state of mahamudra 24/7 full Buddhahood.

:twothumbsup:

Kevin
if mahamudra is your target, i'm tempted to say yes. but i don't know...
Javier, I am talking about a person who has a human body. They are receiving an empowerment like Cakramasvara, and they are becoming Full Buddhas on the spot. How is that possible? They still have a human body with chanells which cause the experience of the human realm, so how can they possibly experience rigpa 24/7 until they are Buddhas? This is what I am asking. They may be able to have an experience of enlightenment for a fingersnap at times, but not 24/7. They have a human body here and now.

Kevin
being in rigpa, is being a buddha, is being in our nature, everything else are ornaments, characteristics, marks. being a buddha doesn't mean we go to another planet, but we are more here than ever.

rigpa doesn't mean meditation or something we do, or even something we receibe from outside, it's beyhond of conciousness of being-in-rigpa, it's a condition, our real condition wich is being ignored right now and it's somehow hided within us by ourselves because reality causes panic to us.

different attainents called realization are stable knowledge of aspects of our nature. so i would say that such attainment during an empowerment like you mention is the nirmanakaya realization, wich comes from insight. we can become aware or someone can make us aware of that. in such case if the realization is stable, samboghakaya and dharmakaya are at hand. for ease that there are spcific rituals.

what i meant before saying "if mahamudra..." is that as i can see, there is no ultimate attainment product of idea of effort, or even of effort-of-no-effort. so apparently real mahamudra is beyhond that.

we can become aware of our nature, something that even if we want to change we can't change, that's different because we already have this. even if we try for kalpas of kalpas we couldn't change, our nature doesn't depend on what we want or who we are. so if this is enlightenment, it is at hand all the time 24/7.

that's why i question when some say enlightenment like if it is an idea to maintain, or say rimpoche like if the title means that a person is what is suppoused to be, or don't use citations. we can't take things for granted or easily we can get lost in satisfaction.

it is very easy to answer by remembering some scriptures, but memory does not mean knowledge, in fact memory are records, toys for our mind.

that's all i can say, and if i'm wrong on view i'll be punished by time haha

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Anders » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:31 pm

Virgo wrote: Javier, I am talking about a person who has a human body. They are receiving an empowerment like Cakramasvara, and they are becoming Full Buddhas on the spot. How is that possible? They still have a human body with chanells which cause the experience of the human realm, so how can they possibly experience rigpa 24/7 until they are Buddhas? This is what I am asking. They may be able to have an experience of enlightenment for a fingersnap at times, but not 24/7. They have a human body here and now.

Kevin
Why would having a human body exclude being a Buddha? Are you saying that the experience of rigpa excludes the experience of the human realm and vice versa?
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:24 pm

Virgo wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Virgo wrote: Through Dzogchen teachings and practice we can have the experience of rigpa. But then we can also have dualistic vision afterwards. We are not fully enlightened at that point. What I am talking about here is someone who is in a state of mahamudra 24/7 full Buddhahood.

:twothumbsup:

Kevin
if mahamudra is your target, i'm tempted to say yes. but i don't know...
Javier, I am talking about a person who has a human body. They are receiving an empowerment like Cakramasvara, and they are becoming Full Buddhas on the spot. How is that possible? They still have a human body with chanells which cause the experience of the human realm, so how can they possibly experience rigpa 24/7 until they are Buddhas? This is what I am asking. They may be able to have an experience of enlightenment for a fingersnap at times, but not 24/7. They have a human body here and now.

Kevin

The process of empowerment transforms the human body through dependent origination. Sadhana is for those who do not obtain buddhahood during the empowerment.

M

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Virgo » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Virgo wrote:
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
if mahamudra is your target, i'm tempted to say yes. but i don't know...
Javier, I am talking about a person who has a human body. They are receiving an empowerment like Cakramasvara, and they are becoming Full Buddhas on the spot. How is that possible? They still have a human body with chanells which cause the experience of the human realm, so how can they possibly experience rigpa 24/7 until they are Buddhas? This is what I am asking. They may be able to have an experience of enlightenment for a fingersnap at times, but not 24/7. They have a human body here and now.

Kevin

The process of empowerment transforms the human body through dependent origination. Sadhana is for those who do not obtain buddhahood during the empowerment.

M
Malcolm than you very much. I believe I understand now.

Javier: I am not talking about the ability to experience rigpa, I am talking to something akin perhaps to the fourth vision, or something similar.

Anders: No, it is possible to experience rigpa in a human body, my doubt was about wether one can stabalize that experience fully with a human body.

My doubt has been cleared up.

Kevin

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:43 pm

is there not at least one major empowerment that includes, in a recognizable if not necessarily named way, direct introduction?

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Astus » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:50 pm

DGA wrote:is there not at least one major empowerment that includes, in a recognizable if not necessarily named way, direct introduction?
That is the 4th, the word empowerment.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:51 pm

DGA wrote:is there not at least one major empowerment that includes, in a recognizable if not necessarily named way, direct introduction?
The fourth empowerment is similar to direct introduction. However, rig pa'i rtsal dbangs are generally more detailed and clear than fourth empowerments. They also do not depend on the experience of small bliss received in the third empowerment.

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
DGA wrote:is there not at least one major empowerment that includes, in a recognizable if not necessarily named way, direct introduction?
The fourth empowerment is similar to direct introduction. However, rig pa'i rtsal dbangs are generally more detailed and clear than fourth empowerments. They also do not depend on the experience of small bliss received in the third empowerment.
In the Rinchen Terdzo there is a section of Ati empowerments. However, there are also Rigpai Tselwangs in cycles not included in this section, if I recall? For example, LaDrup Tigle GyaChen?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:39 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
DGA wrote:is there not at least one major empowerment that includes, in a recognizable if not necessarily named way, direct introduction?
The fourth empowerment is similar to direct introduction. However, rig pa'i rtsal dbangs are generally more detailed and clear than fourth empowerments. They also do not depend on the experience of small bliss received in the third empowerment.
In the Rinchen Terdzo there is a section of Ati empowerments. However, there are also Rigpai Tselwangs in cycles not included in this section, if I recall? For example, LaDrup Tigle GyaChen?
Yes, the rig pa'i rtsal dbang in the Thig le rgya can is fairly extensive, etc. But by contrast, the most unelaborate empowerment in the Khandro Nyinthig is pretty concise and brief.

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by naljor » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:12 pm

What kind of practice is precisely Thig le rgya can? Is it Anuyoga?

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:08 pm

naljor wrote:What kind of practice is precisely Thig le rgya can? Is it Anuyoga?
The practice itself is an anuyoga level guru sadhana. It originally had no empowerment. Khyentse Wangpo wrote one, however.

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Re: Attaining Full Enlightenment During an Empowernment

Post by pemachophel » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:56 pm

It is the most secret (yang sang) Guru yoga of the Longchen Nyingthig.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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