Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:What is the short explanation on the difference between mundane and transcendent accumulations?
First thing that popped into my head too. I've never heard of merit being categorised in this manner.
Mundane merit is exhaustible. For example, this eon begins with a compliment of natural merit; but as latent afflictions become more and more prevalent in the sentient beings who inhabit it, that merit declines resulting the destruction of the billion world system aka the universe.

Transcendent merit is merit dedicated keeping in mind the three wheels of the emptiness of someone dedicating merit, someone to receive it, and the act of dedication. This merit is indestructible and ripens as the major and minor marks, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:42 pm

smcj wrote:Neither had I but I was too chicken to admit it.
Never be scared to admit ignorance, you can save yourself a lot of suffering by just throwing your hands in the air. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

smcj
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by smcj » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:
smcj wrote:Neither had I but I was too chicken to admit it.
Never be scared to admit ignorance, you can save yourself a lot of suffering by just throwing your hands in the air. :smile:
Still takes balls. Thanks for going first.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

AlexanderS
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by AlexanderS » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
AlexanderS wrote:What is the short explanation on the difference between mundane and transcendent accumulations?
First thing that popped into my head too. I've never heard of merit being categorised in this manner.
Mundane merit is exhaustible. For example, this eon begins with a compliment of natural merit; but as latent afflictions become more and more prevalent in the sentient beings who inhabit it, that merit declines resulting the destruction of the billion world system aka the universe.

Transcendent merit is merit dedicated keeping in mind the three wheels of the emptiness of someone dedicating merit, someone to receive it, and the act of dedication. This merit is indestructible and ripens as the major and minor marks, etc.
And the three wheels of emptiness is?

Losal Samten
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Losal Samten » Sat Feb 25, 2017 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:the three wheels of the emptiness
Any reason you choose 'wheels' as the translation as opposed to the usual 'spheres'?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Grigoris
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:Mundane merit is exhaustible. For example, this eon begins with a compliment of natural merit; but as latent afflictions become more and more prevalent in the sentient beings who inhabit it, that merit declines resulting the destruction of the billion world system aka the universe.

Transcendent merit is merit dedicated keeping in mind the three wheels of the emptiness of someone dedicating merit, someone to receive it, and the act of dedication. This merit is indestructible and ripens as the major and minor marks, etc.
Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:58 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Malcolm wrote:the three wheels of the emptiness
Any reason you choose 'wheels' as the translation as opposed to the usual 'spheres'?

'khor lo.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Losal Samten
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Losal Samten » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:'khor lo.
Huh, cheers. The Indians used dhatu, just to clarify, right?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:13 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Malcolm wrote:'khor lo.
Huh, cheers. The Indians used dhatu, just to clarify, right?
Pretty sure they used the term cakra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Losal Samten
Posts: 1420
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Losal Samten » Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:Pretty sure they used the term cakra.
Thanks.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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ClearblueSky
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by ClearblueSky » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:20 am

I just came across this quote today and thought it was quite appropriate:
"All of the teachings of Buddha are of one taste, one way - all leading to the truth, all arriving at the truth. Although there are different vehicles, they neither contradict each other, nor reject the basis of each other. The things that are fully made clear in the lower vehicles are neither changed nor rejected by the higher vehicles, but accepted as they are. The points that are not made completely clear in the lower vehicles are made clear in the higher vehicles, but the basic structure is not changed, and none of the points that are already clear are contradicted. Therefore, different vehicles and traditions do not go in different directions, and they do not arrive at different conclusions."
~ Rongzom Chokyi Zangpo

smcj
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by smcj » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:32 am

Nice. :thumbsup:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:55 pm

JinxedP wrote:Hi all,

I've been mostly a theravada practitioner for most of my meditative life, but I am interested in learning more about vajrayana. I'm particularly interested in Tantric practices and the claim that they are the fastest way to enlightenment. Why is this so? Also, how fast are we talking here? Anyone want to share their experiences? I guess it would also help to clarify what we mean by enlightenment, perhaps it is different than the Theravadan maps.
if sutra works for you faster than other paths, then sutrayana is the fastest path.
if vajrayana works for you faster than other paths, then vajrayana is the fastest path.
if dzogchen works for you faster than other paths, then dzgchen is the fastest path.

this depends on our karma and our diligence and our honesty about the results
for this reason we should nor consider a path better or worst
we can sit in a chair to meditate and unexpectedly enter the knowledge, as simple as that.

and of course that the argue "this path is sublime and the others not" is pure... pure bullshit.

sorry if i'm too direct haha

best regards.

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sangyey
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by sangyey » Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:14 pm

I think Vajrayana is the faststest because tantra has a unique way of having the conventional and ultimate aspects of truth in one consciousness and with that desire is used on the path as a more expedient means of realizing emptiness.

M.G.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by M.G. » Thu Mar 02, 2017 8:22 am

In my own experience, which people are free to disagree with or ignore, I'd say no. I don't believe any one path is inherently faster than any other.

I do think the diligence serious practitioners put into the Vajrayana, such as years of practice retreats, bears real fruit though.

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florin
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by florin » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:32 am

M.G. wrote:
I do think the diligence serious practitioners put into the Vajrayana, such as years of practice retreats, bears real fruit though.
I know of several people who've done 2 or 3 long term retreats and who came out somewhat scarred, full blown ego and with very strong sectarian attitudes. On top of that, some have distanced themselves from anything that is Buddhist related...
However there are others who've benefited tremendously from these retreats.
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

Justmeagain
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Justmeagain » Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:53 am

I would ask where is the evidence for these claims?

Despite efforts to the contrary, there are some really quite sectarian views here.

Claiming that Vajrayana has unique methods is great. But where's the evidence to ay that they're any more efficacious than, for example, Anapanasati?

Apart from those claimed by adherents to a school espousing them that is.

JMA

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Boomerang
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Boomerang » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:00 am

Justmeagain wrote:I would ask where is the evidence for these claims?

Despite efforts to the contrary, there are some really quite sectarian views here.

Claiming that Vajrayana has unique methods is great. But where's the evidence to ay that they're any more efficacious than, for example, Anapanasati?

Apart from those claimed by adherents to a school espousing them that is.

JMA
My impression is that Vajrayana is faster because in Tibet, siddhis are relatively common even in this modern day. Compare that to Theravada countries, where monks stopped meditating entirely for a very long time. They only recently began meditating again a few hundred years ago.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

Justmeagain
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Justmeagain » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:30 am

Boomerang wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I would ask where is the evidence for these claims?

Despite efforts to the contrary, there are some really quite sectarian views here.

Claiming that Vajrayana has unique methods is great. But where's the evidence to ay that they're any more efficacious than, for example, Anapanasati?

Apart from those claimed by adherents to a school espousing them that is.

JMA
My impression is that Vajrayana is faster because in Tibet, siddhis are relatively common even in this modern day. Compare that to Theravada countries, where monks stopped meditating entirely for a very long time. They only recently began meditating again a few hundred years ago.
Wow...do you have source for these claims??

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Boomerang
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Boomerang » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:58 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Boomerang wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I would ask where is the evidence for these claims?

Despite efforts to the contrary, there are some really quite sectarian views here.

Claiming that Vajrayana has unique methods is great. But where's the evidence to ay that they're any more efficacious than, for example, Anapanasati?

Apart from those claimed by adherents to a school espousing them that is.

JMA
My impression is that Vajrayana is faster because in Tibet, siddhis are relatively common even in this modern day. Compare that to Theravada countries, where monks stopped meditating entirely for a very long time. They only recently began meditating again a few hundred years ago.
Wow...do you have source for these claims??
Read Siddhas of Ga, or just talk to any lama who grew up in Tibet and ask them if they have any stories of practitioners attaining siddhi, rainbow body, discovering termas, controlling the weather, having prophetic dreams, healing illnesses through mantra, et cetera. Tibetans have been doing this whole time while Theravada Buddhists had largely given up hope in meditation and aspired to be reborn with better circumstances. If Theravada meditation were as fast as Vajrayana, that wouldn't have happened.
Last edited by Boomerang on Thu Mar 02, 2017 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"All the suffering of the lower realms, whatever difficulty and unhappiness we may experience as human beings, as well as every other possible suffering of the three realms of existence, have their origin in cherishing ourselves more than others."

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