Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

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Caoimhghín
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna in SE Asia were based on Indian Buddhism spreading to the east. Their scriptures were in Sanskirt, as is the case with Mahāyāna that spread to China and Tibet. It has never been the case that the scriptures of any branch of Theravada were based in Sanskrit.
These traditions venerated both Sanskrit and Pali material, and by "these traditions", I refer specifically to the Abhayagirivihāra and Yogāvacara traditions.

Old Indonesian Vajrayana, Filipino, Malay, etc, may well have been without any Pali influence at all. I wouldn't know. They are beyond the purview of this conversation anyways, as they are not modern Theravada societies.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna in SE Asia were based on Indian Buddhism spreading to the east. Their scriptures were in Sanskirt, as is the case with Mahāyāna that spread to China and Tibet. It has never been the case that the scriptures of any branch of Theravada were based in Sanskrit.
These traditions venerated both Sanskrit and Pali material, and by "these traditions", I refer specifically to the Abhayagirivihāra and Yogāvacara traditions.
The Abhayagiri tradition was destroyed completely in the 12th century, at least one of its monks came to study in Sakya, Tibet. It has no influence on S.E. Asia after this date. It is anachronistic to term them Theravadins as well.

With respect to the kind of Buddhism present in SE before the Theravada hegemony:
A similar situation must have obtained throughout south-east Asian Buddhism, for we know that the areas of Thailand, Burma, and Cambodia where Theravāda now flourishes were formerly dominated by Mahāyāna, or Sanskritic Śrāvakayāna Buddhism. We note the widespread occurrence of the cult of Upagupta throughout this region, which is totally absent from Sri Lanka, and wonder whether this gives a hint as to the kind of Buddhism prevalent before the Theravāda orthodoxy. According to I-Tsing, in the lands on the eastern boundaries of India all four major schools flourished, while in the island regions the Mūlasarvāstivāda predominated.

When these areas ‘converted’ to Theravāda (which mainly occurred around the 11th-12th Centuries), it is impossible that all the monks took new ordinations. Of course, the official histories will assert that when the religion was reformed that all the monks conformed to the new system.But the practicalities of this are absurd: sending city administration monks wandering through 1000s of miles of tiger-stalked, bandit-infested, ghost-haunted jungle tracks seeking out countless little villages, trying to persuade senior monks that their ordination is invalid or improper and must be done again, all on the basis of some political compromise in a far-distant capital, in a region of ever-shifting borders and allegiances. As history this is sheer fantasy, and the reality must have been that the reforms would directly affect only certain central m onasteries.


The Yogāvacara tradition is a syncretic tradition with no Indian antecedents or relationship with Vajrayāna at all of the kind we find in Tibet and Japan. We might indeed call it a indigenous tradition, but to call it "Tantric" results from a misunderstanding of what Buddhist tantra is and what tantras are.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna in SE Asia were based on Indian Buddhism spreading to the east. Their scriptures were in Sanskirt, as is the case with Mahāyāna that spread to China and Tibet. It has never been the case that the scriptures of any branch of Theravada were based in Sanskrit.
These traditions venerated both Sanskrit and Pali material, and by "these traditions", I refer specifically to the Abhayagirivihāra and Yogāvacara traditions.
The Abhayagiri tradition was destroyed completely in the 12th century, at least one of its monks came to study in Sakya, Tibet. It has no influence on S.E. Asia after this date. It is anachronistic to term them Theravadins as well.

With respect to the kind of Buddhism present in SE before the Theravada hegemony:
A similar situation must have obtained throughout south-east Asian Buddhism, for we know that the areas of Thailand, Burma, and Cambodia where Theravāda now flourishes were formerly dominated by Mahāyāna, or Sanskritic Śrāvakayāna Buddhism. We note the widespread occurrence of the cult of Upagupta throughout this region, which is totally absent from Sri Lanka, and wonder whether this gives a hint as to the kind of Buddhism prevalent before the Theravāda orthodoxy. According to I-Tsing, in the lands on the eastern boundaries of India all four major schools flourished, while in the island regions the Mūlasarvāstivāda predominated.

When these areas ‘converted’ to Theravāda (which mainly occurred around the 11th-12th Centuries), it is impossible that all the monks took new ordinations. Of course, the official histories will assert that when the religion was reformed that all the monks conformed to the new system.But the practicalities of this are absurd: sending city administration monks wandering through 1000s of miles of tiger-stalked, bandit-infested, ghost-haunted jungle tracks seeking out countless little villages, trying to persuade senior monks that their ordination is invalid or improper and must be done again, all on the basis of some political compromise in a far-distant capital, in a region of ever-shifting borders and allegiances. As history this is sheer fantasy, and the reality must have been that the reforms would directly affect only certain central m onasteries.


The Yogāvacara tradition is a syncretic tradition with no Indian antecedents or relationship with Vajrayāna at all of the kind we find in Tibet and Japan. We might indeed call it a indigenous tradition, but to call it "Tantric" results from a misunderstanding of what Buddhist tantra is and what tantras are.
I can agree with this. We posit, no doubt based on the different sources we have consulted, different dates for the emergence of "modern Theravada" (I say during the 1800s, in response to British colonialism, I hesitate to assuming you put that date sometime after 1100 or 1200).

I don't doubt that some (many?) academics have a definition of tantra that is highly divorced from definitions put forth by actual tantric practitioners. And that the motivations of some sectarian to call pre-modern Theravada orthodoxy "tantric" is an attempt to discredit it. Just look at the "Tantric Theravada" thread at DhammaWheel for proof.

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy. I would say substantial Mahayana (I will concede to you that Vajrayana may have been absent from discourse present) influence endured at least until the 1800s. Perhaps this is an example of scholars and sectarian individuals failing to differentiate between Mahayana and Vajrayana. Given the prominence of Vajrayana in close geopolitical proximity to these events, however, I do find it slightly unbelievable that it was absent for the time we are talking about.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote:[

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy.
I do not think you can point to a single surviving work. So it is a huge conjecture to claim that Abhayagirivihāra discourse has not defunct, completely and thoroughly.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:[

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy.
I do not think you can point to a single surviving work. So it is a huge conjecture to claim that Abhayagirivihāra discourse has not defunct, completely and thoroughly.
I don't think there's any reason why we should assume that the Dharma dispensation undertaken at the Abhayagirivihāra would end just because their texts were destroyed. Unless all of the monks and novices were systematically executed they still had people who knew the scriptures, I daresay who may have known them for very well. Even if their orthodoxy had lost royal patronage I don't think there is reason to think they would necessarily stop their teaching and their Dharma-dispensation. Even if they had outlawed the Abhayagirivihāra teachings, Mahayana Buddhism has survived state persecution before.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:[

The destruction of the monastery itself does not mean the end of Abhayagirivihāra discourse at large. Mahayana Buddhism is hardy.
I do not think you can point to a single surviving work. So it is a huge conjecture to claim that Abhayagirivihāra discourse has not defunct, completely and thoroughly.
I don't think there's any reason why we should assume that the Dharma dispensation undertaken at the Abhayagirivihāra would end just because their texts were destroyed. Unless all of the monks and novices were systematically executed they still had people who knew the scriptures, I daresay who may have known them for very well. Even if their orthodoxy had lost royal patronage I don't think there is reason to think they would necessarily stop their teaching and their Dharma-dispensation. Even if they had outlawed the Abhayagirivihāra teachings, Mahayana Buddhism has survived state persecution before.
Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone thought Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone though Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.
amanitamusc
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by amanitamusc »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone thought Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
Keep the hope alive.I could of sworn I saw Campephilus principalis this morning, but I live in Arizona.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Huseng »

With respect to the concept of 'buddhahood in a single lifetime' and some of the history behind it, something I wrote here might be of interest...

http://huayanzang.blogspot.com/2016/05/ ... ndala.html

Edit: If you like that, see the following as well (gives some dates to keep in mind):

http://huayanzang.blogspot.nl/2015/12/w ... sutra.html
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone though Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone though Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
I think you need to study a bit more of the history of Buddhism and restrain your speculations for the time being.

There is virtually no evidence for Mahāyāna in Thailand after the collapse of the Khmer empire in the 13th century. Mahāyāna, including Vajrayāna, in SE Asia collapsed with the collapse of Buddhism in India since it was dependent on Indian Buddhism.
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
You might find Mahayana influences, like monks praying for a bodhisattva to be born.
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.
Thervada has a different concept of bodhisattvas than Mahayana.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Tiago Simões »

Malcolm wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No need to look to Mahāyāna for that.
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.
Thervada has a different concept of bodhisattvas than Mahayana.
I haven't really put much study into the therevada view of bodhisattvas, in what ways do they differ?

"Very offtopic I know"
Malcolm
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Malcolm »

tiagolps wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
tiagolps wrote:
Well true, I guess a theravadin can ask a bodhisattva to teach him hinayana.
Thervada has a different concept of bodhisattvas than Mahayana.
I haven't really put much study into the therevada view of bodhisattvas, in what ways do they differ?

"Very offtopic I know"
Bodhisattvas in their view are barred from stream entry because of their vow to attain perfect buddhahood.
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

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amanitamusc wrote:I could of sworn I saw Campephilus principalis this morning, but I live in Arizona.
I had one of those once, nasty blighters, had to put ointment on it every morning for a month before it went away. :tongue:
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

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Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone thought Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
OK, why don't you look for some sources to back up your argument?

Can you find any sources for Mahayana surviving in SEA before recent Chinese immigration brought it back?
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by Caoimhghín »

MiphamFan wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāyāna ended in Srī Lanka when the Abhayagirivihāra was destroyed and its monks forced into lay clothing.
I don't think there is precedent for the tradition ending just because the monks are persecuted. They were fully enracinated in their community, and I don't think there is reason to think that they had no lay supporters. The decision to destroy the monastery was likely not popular in each-and-every single corner of society. And times change. Societal tastes wax and wane. One generation may respond to the perceived "heresy" of Mahayana with force, another may not be so inclined.

The persistence of periodic anti-Mahayana reforms in Thailand and to a far lesser extent Sri Lanka attest to the fact that someone thought Mahayana was still being practiced widely enough for it to be a "problem" from their POV.
OK, why don't you look for some sources to back up your argument
I have the sources, it is just a matter of time to actually make the post in question and try to find hyperlinks to as many texts that I can online, so no one has to "take it on faith" that on page so-and-so of such-and-such dissertation has X or Y argument. I should have something prepared by the weekend, when I have more time to pursue leisure work on the Internet.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
amanitamusc
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Re: Is Vajrayana really the fastest path?

Post by amanitamusc »

Grigoris wrote:
amanitamusc wrote:I could of sworn I saw Campephilus principalis this morning, but I live in Arizona.
I had one of those once, nasty blighters, had to put ointment on it every morning for a month before it went away. :tongue:
You put ointment on your woodpecker.This is the common variety, not the long gone Campephilus principalis . :jedi:
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