Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

[Natan]

In which case you are saying that conventional mind can be enlightened (experiences enlightenment), or that is enlightened already (but not perceived of as enlightened)?

The approach of the Sakyapas and Gelugpas is alchemical— they want to take the base matter of the five aggregates and transform them into the five wisdoms.

The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.

This is very good analogy

[liuzg150181]

The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.

What abt Kagyu Mahamudra?

. It varies. There are approaches that are gradualist, and some that are so-called "instantaneous."

So far from what I had read,Essence Mahamudra is "instantaneous"(as it is very similar to sems de of Dzogchen),whereas sutric and tantric mahamudra are more of gradual ones afaik.
What abt Drikung Kagyu's Five Fold path of mahamudra? Read somewhere that it is much less gradual but is it more similar to essence mahamudra?

[Vasana]

What abt Kagyu Mahamudra?

. It varies. There are approaches that are gradualist, and some that are so-called "instantaneous."

So far from what I had read,Essence Mahamudra is "instantaneous"(as it is very similar to sems de of Dzogchen),whereas sutric and tantric mahamudra are more of gradual ones afaik.
What abt Drikung Kagyu's Five Fold path of mahamudra? Read somewhere that it is much less gradual but is it more similar to essence mahamudra?

Whether a path/result is "instantaneous" depends largely on the capacity of the student which is often categorized in to superior,middling & lower, with another 3 subdivisions of each of these. In Dakpo Kagyu Mahamudra, there's also the classification of Instant, skipping & gradual types of students. Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.

I think a lot of people have the idea that 'instantaneous' means that nothing more be done but our tendencies to see things dualisticly are quite ingrained. The pointing out or direct introduction even if it points to something instant, still requires the 'path' of non-distraction to actually integrate and stabilize.

[Schrödinger’s Yidam]

Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.

My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

[Malcolm]

Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.

My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.

[Norwegian]

Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.

My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.

Saraha and Lingrepa comes to mind.

[Grigoris]

I think a lot of people have the idea that 'instantaneous' means that nothing more be done but our tendencies to see things dualisticly are quite ingrained. The pointing out or direct introduction even if it points to something instant, still requires the 'path' of non-distraction to actually integrate and stabilize.

Zackly!

[Natan]

Aspirations are at the root of it.

[conebeckham]

Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.

My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.

Yes, and those are the exact words used in teaching manuals regarding differentiating "Essence Mahamudra" from other Mahamudra paths. Aspirations are important, but the prerequisite, at least in this lifetime, is unfabricated devotion on the part of the student, and karmic connection between the student and the qualified teacher.

I've not heard any teacher say this, but I think it's reasonable to compare this situation with Dzogchen; Direct Introduction is given, and if a student does not "get it," in an experiential sense, there are "fall-backs" which serve to create conditions for experience to arise. In Dzogchen you have Rushens, SemDzins, and also ngondro and the Creation and completion stages, while in Mahamudra you have ngondro, especially Guru Yoga, as well as the two stages and gradual guided instructions from one's teacher, regarding investigating mind, etc. I have heard it said that some students, when working in these graduated investigations, sometimes develop the devotion and have experience in the midst of this. As someone said, there are gradualists, instantaneous students, and stage skippers, jumpers, etc.

[Natan]

My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.

It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.

Yes, and those are the exact words used in teaching manuals regarding differentiating "Essence Mahamudra" from other Mahamudra paths. Aspirations are important, but the prerequisite, at least in this lifetime, is unfabricated devotion on the part of the student, and karmic connection between the student and the qualified teacher.

I've not heard any teacher say this, but I think it's reasonable to compare this situation with Dzogchen; Direct Introduction is given, and if a student does not "get it," in an experiential sense, there are "fall-backs" which serve to create conditions for experience to arise. In Dzogchen you have Rushens, SemDzins, and also ngondro and the Creation and completion stages, while in Mahamudra you have ngondro, especially Guru Yoga, as well as the two stages and gradual guided instructions from one's teacher, regarding investigating mind, etc. I have heard it said that some students, when working in these graduated investigations, sometimes develop the devotion and have experience in the midst of this. As someone said, there are gradualists, instantaneous students, and stage skippers, jumpers, etc.

The empowerment for a certain important Dzogchen cycle says explicitly you can wake up right now if that's your SINCERE fervent aspiration. I suppose that bit slips past most people and attention goes to visualizations. Dzogchen practice also is always has guru yoga at the center of it all. That's not to mean you go straight into rainbow mode. Not at all. In fact wanting that is the opposite of going that way. But, you don't need too many practices once the empowerment is given. Getting it is not an issue. Everyone gets it who sincerely participates. call it aspiration or devotion or whatever, but this is the primary cause of both receiving and accomplishing. We don't have to make a religion out of steps. That's our most important practice point.

[anjali]

Chutes and Ladders discussion move here.

[falcon]

The Path of Mahamudra can be approached in myriad ways. There are traditions that dispense with Deity practice, but which rely on specific instructions, Pointing Out Instructions, Introductions, etc.
There are traditions which utilize the Two Stages of Deity Yoga, as well.
Tsongkhapafan's comments apply to a specific system or practice, and do not apply to the wider, rich tradition of Mahamudra. there are indeed other systems which rely on deity yoga and there are systems where deity yoga may or may not be included.

1) What are those traditions that which rely on specific instructions and pointing out instructions?

2) Of those traditions, can the specific instructions or pointing out instructions be applied to ones own secluded meditation? (As in without a physical person orally giving such instructions. And instead reading of instructions from text)