This is very good analogyMalcolm wrote:The approach of the Sakyapas and Gelugpas is alchemical— they want to take the base matter of the five aggregates and transform them into the five wisdoms.Grigoris wrote:In which case you are saying that conventional mind can be enlightened (experiences enlightenment), or that is enlightened already (but not perceived of as enlightened)?
The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.
Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
So far from what I had read,Essence Mahamudra is "instantaneous"(as it is very similar to sems de of Dzogchen),whereas sutric and tantric mahamudra are more of gradual ones afaik.conebeckham wrote:. It varies. There are approaches that are gradualist, and some that are so-called "instantaneous."liuzg150181 wrote:What abt Kagyu Mahamudra?Malcolm wrote: The approach of Dzogchen is like smelting ore to extract gold.
What abt Drikung Kagyu's Five Fold path of mahamudra? Read somewhere that it is much less gradual but is it more similar to essence mahamudra?
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Whether a path/result is "instantaneous" depends largely on the capacity of the student which is often categorized in to superior,middling & lower, with another 3 subdivisions of each of these. In Dakpo Kagyu Mahamudra, there's also the classification of Instant, skipping & gradual types of students. Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.liuzg150181 wrote:So far from what I had read,Essence Mahamudra is "instantaneous"(as it is very similar to sems de of Dzogchen),whereas sutric and tantric mahamudra are more of gradual ones afaik.conebeckham wrote:. It varies. There are approaches that are gradualist, and some that are so-called "instantaneous."liuzg150181 wrote: What abt Kagyu Mahamudra?
What abt Drikung Kagyu's Five Fold path of mahamudra? Read somewhere that it is much less gradual but is it more similar to essence mahamudra?
I think a lot of people have the idea that 'instantaneous' means that nothing more be done but our tendencies to see things dualisticly are quite ingrained. The pointing out or direct introduction even if it points to something instant, still requires the 'path' of non-distraction to actually integrate and stabilize.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.smcj wrote:My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Saraha and Lingrepa comes to mind.Malcolm wrote:It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.smcj wrote:My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Zackly!Vasana wrote:I think a lot of people have the idea that 'instantaneous' means that nothing more be done but our tendencies to see things dualisticly are quite ingrained. The pointing out or direct introduction even if it points to something instant, still requires the 'path' of non-distraction to actually integrate and stabilize.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Aspirations are at the root of it.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Yes, and those are the exact words used in teaching manuals regarding differentiating "Essence Mahamudra" from other Mahamudra paths. Aspirations are important, but the prerequisite, at least in this lifetime, is unfabricated devotion on the part of the student, and karmic connection between the student and the qualified teacher.Malcolm wrote:It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.smcj wrote:My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.Instantaneous types are the most rare since you would need a high degree of past-life realization & familiarity as well as having met conducive circumstances in this life.
I've not heard any teacher say this, but I think it's reasonable to compare this situation with Dzogchen; Direct Introduction is given, and if a student does not "get it," in an experiential sense, there are "fall-backs" which serve to create conditions for experience to arise. In Dzogchen you have Rushens, SemDzins, and also ngondro and the Creation and completion stages, while in Mahamudra you have ngondro, especially Guru Yoga, as well as the two stages and gradual guided instructions from one's teacher, regarding investigating mind, etc. I have heard it said that some students, when working in these graduated investigations, sometimes develop the devotion and have experience in the midst of this. As someone said, there are gradualists, instantaneous students, and stage skippers, jumpers, etc.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
The empowerment for a certain important Dzogchen cycle says explicitly you can wake up right now if that's your SINCERE fervent aspiration. I suppose that bit slips past most people and attention goes to visualizations. Dzogchen practice also is always has guru yoga at the center of it all. That's not to mean you go straight into rainbow mode. Not at all. In fact wanting that is the opposite of going that way. But, you don't need too many practices once the empowerment is given. Getting it is not an issue. Everyone gets it who sincerely participates. call it aspiration or devotion or whatever, but this is the primary cause of both receiving and accomplishing. We don't have to make a religion out of steps. That's our most important practice point.conebeckham wrote:Yes, and those are the exact words used in teaching manuals regarding differentiating "Essence Mahamudra" from other Mahamudra paths. Aspirations are important, but the prerequisite, at least in this lifetime, is unfabricated devotion on the part of the student, and karmic connection between the student and the qualified teacher.Malcolm wrote:It is not a fiction, but it is as rare as a star seen during the daytime.smcj wrote: My Gelug teacher elaborated on this by saying that instantaneous enlightenment is really a fiction. The "work" of dharma practice is always there, but it may be in a previous life and therefore unseen. Thus if viewed from this life only it may appear as effortless and instantaneous but that is simply not seeing the entire picture.
I've not heard any teacher say this, but I think it's reasonable to compare this situation with Dzogchen; Direct Introduction is given, and if a student does not "get it," in an experiential sense, there are "fall-backs" which serve to create conditions for experience to arise. In Dzogchen you have Rushens, SemDzins, and also ngondro and the Creation and completion stages, while in Mahamudra you have ngondro, especially Guru Yoga, as well as the two stages and gradual guided instructions from one's teacher, regarding investigating mind, etc. I have heard it said that some students, when working in these graduated investigations, sometimes develop the devotion and have experience in the midst of this. As someone said, there are gradualists, instantaneous students, and stage skippers, jumpers, etc.
Last edited by Natan on Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
Chutes and Ladders discussion move here.
Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?
1) What are those traditions that which rely on specific instructions and pointing out instructions?conebeckham wrote: ↑Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:05 pm
The Path of Mahamudra can be approached in myriad ways. There are traditions that dispense with Deity practice, but which rely on specific instructions, Pointing Out Instructions, Introductions, etc.
There are traditions which utilize the Two Stages of Deity Yoga, as well.
Tsongkhapafan's comments apply to a specific system or practice, and do not apply to the wider, rich tradition of Mahamudra. there are indeed other systems which rely on deity yoga and there are systems where deity yoga may or may not be included.
2) Of those traditions, can the specific instructions or pointing out instructions be applied to ones own secluded meditation? (As in without a physical person orally giving such instructions. And instead reading of instructions from text)