Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
zenman
Posts: 436
Joined: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:24 pm

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by zenman » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:48 am

heart wrote:development and completion is practiced together....
/magnus
anjali wrote: ....Tulku Urgyen, a highly regarded master in both Dzogchen and Mahamudra....
....
There is another way to unite development and completion: include the completion stage within the development state. While trying to imagine oneself as the deity, palace and so forth, at some point remember to recognize mind essence: "What is it that imagines this? What is it that thinks this?" In the moment of recognizing mind essence, development and completion stage are a unity, because the empty quality of that which visualizes is and always was dharmakaya.

Whichever particular way we choose to practice, we should always unite development and completion.
Nicely expressed.
heart wrote:
zenman wrote:
Is it right to say that the "fourth yoga" is "essence mahamudra" which in turn is the same as "dzogchen"? I don'tactually know about it but I would assume that direct introduction is the same in both sutra mahamudra and essence mahamudra but sutra mahamudra offers a path of practice to those who don't get the DI, that is, attain the stage of non-meditation through it.
In Mahamudra the natural state is fully realised in the fourth yoga, this fully realised natural state is what you are introduced to in Essence Mahamudra. The path (of Essence Mahaamudra) will still include the four yogas if you don't get fully realised during direct introduction. That is very unusual but it can happen. Sutra Mahamudra and Tantra Mahamudra is a step-by-step approach, not the same.

/magnus
Thank you.

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:26 am

conebeckham wrote: In fact, we feel this is a misunderstanding of the profound nature of generation Stage.

It is a partial and expedient truth to say that Mahamudra and Dzogchen view it as "inferior," IMO. An instruction for specific students.
Would you like to explain the nature and function of generation stage then, if we've got it wrong?

Would you accept that Mahamudra is a completion stage realisation, or is it something else?
Is your understanding of Mahamudra is that it is the union of great bliss and emptiness?

The substantial cause of a Buddha's enjoyment body is the illusory body and this depends upon generation stage. No generation stage, no illusory body, no enjoyment body, no Buddhahood.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:41 am

anjali wrote:
Given the teachings you've received, is this something you could accept?
Thank you for sharing this.

Based on the teachings I have received on Tantra I don't agree with Tulku Urgyen: merely visualising the Deity and mandala, even thinking that it is an expression of the ultimate, is not completion stage but just a more profound generation stage. Completion stage is meditating on emptiness with the very subtle mind of great bliss that arises from the gross and subtle winds dissolving into the central channel through the force of meditation. What causes the winds to enter, abide and dissolve is the blessings received upon the very subtle body through the practice of generation stage; thus, as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:28 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Conceptual minds create, and the conceptual minds of generation stage create the cause for completion stage experiences.
The purpose of the creation stage is remedy attachment to impure perception. The purpose of the completion stage is to eliminate attachment even to pure perception.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:30 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Hashang was wrong to want to abandon all conceptuality...
Classic example of fake news. Hashang's view is much more profound the Kamalashila's. But centuries of misrepresentation and politics have obscured this fact.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:32 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote: Would you accept that Mahamudra is a completion stage realisation, or is it something else?
  • “Mahāmudrā” is a mental imputation of the childish.
Virupa

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:48 pm

heart wrote:Thinking you need perfect shamata to arrive at vipassana is common but the truth is that shamata always have some vipassana. In fact it is impossible to develop shamata without a little bit of vipassana.
Really, so all Hindus have a little bit of vipaśyāna in their śamatha? Really?



In the same way completion is impossible without development and development without completion. It is, or should be, integration with the natural state.
If we take you seriously, you are claiming that rDzogs chen is impossible without bskyed rim and rdzogs rim!

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:49 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote: as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.
It is not essential in the least.

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4659
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by heart » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:Thinking you need perfect shamata to arrive at vipassana is common but the truth is that shamata always have some vipassana. In fact it is impossible to develop shamata without a little bit of vipassana.
Really, so all Hindus have a little bit of vipaśyāna in their śamatha? Really?
I don't really know anything about Hinduism, so I can't really say.
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: In the same way completion is impossible without development and development without completion. It is, or should be, integration with the natural state.
If we take you seriously, you are claiming that rDzogs chen is impossible without bskyed rim and rdzogs rim!
Perhaps I am expressing myself badly, I am rather saying that bskyed rim doesn't really work without rDzogs chen. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:56 pm

heart wrote:
Perhaps I am expressing myself badly, I am rather saying that bskyed rim doesn't really work without rDzogs chen. :smile:

/magnus

I can go along with that.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:00 pm

Magnus, I think you meant to say "bskyed rim doesn't really work without rDzogs rim," and not "rDzogs chen." At least, I hope so! :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4659
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by heart » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:05 pm

conebeckham wrote:Magnus, I think you meant to say "bskyed rim doesn't really work without rDzogs rim," and not "rDzogs chen." At least, I hope so! :smile:
Well rDzogs rim in the context I am talking about is rDzogs chen.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote: as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.
It is not essential in the least.
Buddha Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa and all realised Tantric adepts disagree with you. Even anyone who intellectually knows how Tantra works would disagree with you.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:30 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
conebeckham wrote: In fact, we feel this is a misunderstanding of the profound nature of generation Stage.

It is a partial and expedient truth to say that Mahamudra and Dzogchen view it as "inferior," IMO. An instruction for specific students.
Would you like to explain the nature and function of generation stage then, if we've got it wrong?
Malcolm has lucidly and concisely done this already. "Creation Stage remedies attachement to impure perception." Creation stage does not "newly create" something that did not exist previously, per se. It rectifies mistaken views, and purifies the stages of life, from various types of birth, to death, etc. One carries on the three aspects of Creation stage: Clarity, Recollection of Purity, and Divine Pride. By meditating with effort, eventually the deity will arise without meditation. This is called the "lesser experience of luminous appearance." The "Middling Experience" occurs when deity, mandala, palace and retinue deities, etc., appear without effort.

As for the necessity of this, Kongtrul writes, in "Creation and Completion:"
The many techniques of creation and completion, both with and without visualization,
such as as rejecting or transforming or resting in decieving appearances,
are purificatory methods, and that is where the value of all practice lies.
Thoughts of past, present, and future are like ripples on water, never ending.
Without pursuing them, whatever the subject of concentration is,
upon that itself, like a master craftsperson spinning yarn,
not too tight or too loose, but just right for the material,
the wise direct their watchguard of mindfulness again and again.
.....
When you establish for certain the true nature of mind,
many things arise, yet they are not other than the one.
That one thing also cannot even be grasped by objective clinging.
Looking at it, it is not seen, being without color or shape.
This is a sign of its being without foundation, free of basis, and beyond intellect.
Its essence is empty, its nature clarity,
and it's dynamic play of compassion arises without inhibition.

You try to block thoughts and yet they are not blocked-
first one unblocked thought arises, then a second-let them arise.
When they arise, send them wherever they go and stand guard.
Since there is no place for them to go, they have returned,
like a crow who has taken off from a ship.
Rest like the movement of swells at sea.
.......
Generally, everything up to the mahamudra is termed "mind path."
Common dzogchen is also included in this.
The class of exceptional esoteric instructions (MenNgakDe)
is said to be the "awareness path," and as such,
it is not definite that one must begin with calm abiding.
When the nature of naked awareness itself, without exaggeration or denial is revealed,
it is sufficient just to become accustomed to that.
However, if the true nature is not unerringly revealed,
then even the profound esoteric instructions will be difficult to assimilate.
Tsongkhapafan wrote:Would you accept that Mahamudra is a completion stage realisation, or is it something else?
Is your understanding of Mahamudra is that it is the union of great bliss and emptiness?
Mahamudra means many things, and can be explained many ways. Malcolm has pointed to the ultimate meaning, in his quote from Virupa. But on the level of pedagogy and training, we can speak of Ground Mahamudra, Path Mahamudra, and Fruitional Mahamudra. In a sense, all practices are Mahamudra when understood in this framework. Yes, it is a "completion stage realization," but it is not only that. Yes, it is the union of great bliss and emptiness, but not only that.
The substantial cause of a Buddha's enjoyment body is the illusory body and this depends upon generation stage. No generation stage, no illusory body, no enjoyment body, no Buddhahood.
Ah, well.....our current experience, leaving aside meditation on Illusory body, is actually the impure illusory body. All compounded phenomena and all sentient beings are mere mirages. So, there is that sort of practice which is actually an important stage, and not connected with the Two Stages, per se. The Pure Illusory Body practice is the meditation on the deity and mandala. The Hidden Illusory Body depends on Completion Stage practice, whether of the methods of Father Tantra or Mother Tantra, but the Ultimate Illusory Body manifests from the conjoined luminous clarity or Pristine Awareness Wisdom and the subtle wind which is it's mount. This Great Vajra Body, Vajradhara itself, is a combination of the mind abiding in Pristine Awareness Wisdom and the body manifesting as the Illusory Body. This is also Kongtrul's explanation, from the Treasury of Knowledge-I'm paraphrasing. These subjects really require extensive explanations from qualified masters, so I am providing these words merely as a rejoinder to your statement.

Kongtrul also says that the Pristine Awareness Wisdom is nonconceptual and it brings about the result. It is chiefly the Dharmakaya which is the result for oneself, and which is primordially inseparable from the Form Kayas, which is the goal--not, per se, the Form Kayas which somehow lead to the Dharmakaya. The practices of Mahamudra in my tradition, and the practices of Dzogchen as well, are concerned with the Pristine Awareness Wisdom, and with actualization or realization of full fruition, of the Dharmakaya.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:14 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote: as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.
It is not essential in the least.
Buddha Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa and all realised Tantric adepts disagree with you.
No, they don't.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1639
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:43 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
You really should find a qualified, authentic teacher. It's not too late.
I've got one, thanks.
Your opinion is shared only by you and others in your cult.

User avatar
bryandavis
Posts: 250
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by bryandavis » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:38 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
as I have said before, generation stage is an essential part of the spiritual path and cannot be bypassed.


It is not essential in the least.


Buddha Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa and all realised Tantric adepts disagree with you.


No, they don't.

..... here is some scriptural backing on no they don't



Here is what Tilopa had to say ( with a few different transaltions given ) from Ganges Mahamudraupadesa

The followers of Tantra, the Prajnaparamita,
The Vinaya, the Sutras, and other religions-
All these, by their texts and philosophical dogmas,
Will not see the luminous mahamudra.

or

Whether it be what the mantra[yana] or the paramita[yana] say,
The collections of the vinaya, the sutras, and so on,
Or your own individual scriptures and philosophical systems,
Through none of these will you see luminous Mahamudra.
Through what springs from wanting, you do not see luminosity, but it obscures.
Through conceptions, precepts and samayas fall away from the actual.

or here is Tilopa pointing at working with dzogrim techniques when ones natural state not stable:

When your mind is less acute and does not truly rest,
Work the essentials of energy and bring out the vitality of awareness.
Using gazes and techniques to take hold of mind
Train awareness until it does truly rest.

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:36 pm

bryandavis wrote: ..... here is some scriptural backing on no they don't



Here is what Tilopa had to say ( with a few different transaltions given ) from Ganges Mahamudraupadesa

The followers of Tantra, the Prajnaparamita,
The Vinaya, the Sutras, and other religions-
All these, by their texts and philosophical dogmas,
Will not see the luminous mahamudra.

or

Whether it be what the mantra[yana] or the paramita[yana] say,
The collections of the vinaya, the sutras, and so on,
Or your own individual scriptures and philosophical systems,
Through none of these will you see luminous Mahamudra.
Through what springs from wanting, you do not see luminosity, but it obscures.
Through conceptions, precepts and samayas fall away from the actual.

or here is Tilopa pointing at working with dzogrim techniques when ones natural state not stable:

When your mind is less acute and does not truly rest,
Work the essentials of energy and bring out the vitality of awareness.
Using gazes and techniques to take hold of mind
Train awareness until it does truly rest.
This doesn't prove anything, he's talking about the experience of Mahamudra which, as Cone has agreed, is a completion stage realisation. All the great Mahasiddhas taught the necessity of the two stages by which one can experience Mahamudra. He's also saying that Mahamudra is something that has to be experienced, not intellectualised about. However, he's not saying that samayas, precepts and so forth are not necessary to realise Mahamudra, but that Mahamudra necessarily involves meditation on the mind.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 5008
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:53 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
bryandavis wrote: ..... here is some scriptural backing on no they don't



Here is what Tilopa had to say ( with a few different transaltions given ) from Ganges Mahamudraupadesa

The followers of Tantra, the Prajnaparamita,
The Vinaya, the Sutras, and other religions-
All these, by their texts and philosophical dogmas,
Will not see the luminous mahamudra.

or

Whether it be what the mantra[yana] or the paramita[yana] say,
The collections of the vinaya, the sutras, and so on,
Or your own individual scriptures and philosophical systems,
Through none of these will you see luminous Mahamudra.
Through what springs from wanting, you do not see luminosity, but it obscures.
Through conceptions, precepts and samayas fall away from the actual.

or here is Tilopa pointing at working with dzogrim techniques when ones natural state not stable:

When your mind is less acute and does not truly rest,
Work the essentials of energy and bring out the vitality of awareness.
Using gazes and techniques to take hold of mind
Train awareness until it does truly rest.
This doesn't prove anything, he's talking about the experience of Mahamudra which, as Cone has agreed, is a completion stage realisation. All the great Mahasiddhas taught the necessity of the two stages by which one can experience Mahamudra. He's also saying that Mahamudra is something that has to be experienced, not intellectualised about. However, he's not saying that samayas, precepts and so forth are not necessary to realise Mahamudra, but that Mahamudra necessarily involves meditation on the mind.
Nicely done, twisting my words like that!
You must be one of those who feels plain words need to be elucidated. :thinking:
I said Mahamudra was not merely a completion stage realization, if you read the entirety of my post. It is also a self-sufficient path, without need of the Two Stages, in my tradition. Maitripa and Saraha, nevermind Gampopa, would take issue with your baseless assertions.

I will follow up when I have a chance with some clarifications regarding your assertions and erroneous statements of Mahasiddhas. If I get the time, I'll try to clarify your misconceptions of "Hashang" and that tired old trope, otherwise known as "dead horse." It may not stick to you, but at least the thread will be more accurate and instructive.
Last edited by conebeckham on Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Tsongkhapafan
Posts: 1233
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:36 am

Re: Mahamudra or Dzogchen without tantric empowerment?

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:56 pm

conebeckham wrote: Creation stage does not "newly create" something that did not exist previously, per se. It rectifies mistaken views, and purifies the stages of life, from various types of birth, to death, etc.
Actually, it does create something that did not exist previously. I know you believe that enlightenment already exists but I disagree because a potential is not full fruition. We have Buddha nature, not Buddhahood. The definition of generation stage is is a realization of a creative yoga prior to attaining the actual completion stage, which is attained through the practice of bringing any of the three bodies into the path. It's called a creative yoga because its object is created by correct imagination. It did not exist before. The term 'creation stage' makes it even clearer that it is the creation of something that did not exist before.
Ah, well.....our current experience, leaving aside meditation on Illusory body, is actually the impure illusory body. All compounded phenomena and all sentient beings are mere mirages. So, there is that sort of practice which is actually an important stage, and not connected with the Two Stages, per se. The Pure Illusory Body practice is the meditation on the deity and mandala. The Hidden Illusory Body depends on Completion Stage practice, whether of the methods of Father Tantra or Mother Tantra, but the Ultimate Illusory Body manifests from the conjoined luminous clarity or Pristine Awareness Wisdom and the subtle wind which is it's mount. This Great Vajra Body, Vajradhara itself, is a combination of the mind abiding in Pristine Awareness Wisdom and the body manifesting as the Illusory Body. This is also Kongtrul's explanation, from the Treasury of Knowledge-I'm paraphrasing. These subjects really require extensive explanations from qualified masters, so I am providing these words merely as a rejoinder to your statement.

Kongtrul also says that the Pristine Awareness Wisdom is nonconceptual and it brings about the result. It is chiefly the Dharmakaya which is the result for oneself, and which is primordially inseparable from the Form Kayas, which is the goal--not, per se, the Form Kayas which somehow lead to the Dharmakaya. The practices of Mahamudra in my tradition, and the practices of Dzogchen as well, are concerned with the Pristine Awareness Wisdom, and with actualization or realization of full fruition, of the Dharmakaya.
Okay, let's try a different approach. I agree that the enjoyment body does not lead to the truth body, however, in order to attain a truth body one needs to meditate on emptiness with the very subtle mind of great bliss. This depends upon manifesting the very subtle mind, which depends upon the winds entering, abiding and dissolving within the central channel, which depends upon receiving the blessings of our Yidam upon our channels, winds and drops, which depends upon the practice of generation stage.

Also, the practice of bringing the three bodies into the path in completion stage depends upon the practice of bringing the three bodies into the path according to generation stage. The realisations of completion stage depend upon the meditation of generation stage, thus it is utterly indispensable for attaining the truth body.
Last edited by Tsongkhapafan on Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tlalok and 112 guests