Question about Tulkus

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AlexanderS
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Question about Tulkus

Post by AlexanderS » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:39 pm

I've read before that in Tibet they believed that if a tulku is not recognized and enthroned then that tulku will develop a mental ilness because they are not fulfilling their purpose in life. I was wondering if anyone could suggest some reading on this or explain in more detail this belief?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:12 pm

I don't really know anything about it, but there is some discussion of it in Diana Mukpo's memoir, "Dragon Thunder", specifically in connection with her and CTR's son Taggie's autism.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

pemachophel
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by pemachophel » Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:37 pm

It may happen like. It doesn't have to happen like that.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

smcj
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 am

Rent the documentary "Tulku". It is both by and about Gesar Mukpo, who is a western tulku. He actually made a documentary about himself, although he does include some other western tulku he knows too. None are doing so well with it. If that's not a testimonial to a train coming off the tracks I don't know what is.
Last edited by smcj on Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:34 am, edited 5 times in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

AlexanderS
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by AlexanderS » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:23 am

dzogchungpa wrote:I don't really know anything about it, but there is some discussion of it in Diana Mukpo's memoir, "Dragon Thunder", specifically in connection with her and CTR's son Taggie's autism.
This is where I read it last. But I also have a recollection reading in another book that typically protective rituals must be performed for tulkus since the evil forces of the world will try to make sure they dont fulfill their purpose.

smcj
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:35 am

I've met a couple of them myself. When they go bad it's not pretty. They can still be charming but you can't turn your back on them for even a minute. Best to just stear clear.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Anonymous X
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:46 am

In the mid 70's, in a small northern California town, I walked into a 7-11 type convenience store one night. Behind the counter, I recognized a Tibetan face and chatted him up. When he mentioned he was a tulku, I asked him how he wound up here. He said he was working, making a living, just like any ordinary person. We just looked at each other and laughed. At the time, it was incredulous to me that someone like him would be in a place like that. Perhaps my limitation in the way that I viewed him. Sweet guy.

In the early 90's, I met Kathok Shinjen, head of the Kathok monasteries which numbered in the hundreds. He lived in Chengdu and was a very controversial figure within the Tibetan political club. He was the highest ranking lama in China and had a seat in the government. I spent a fair amount of time with him. One evening in Bangkok, a few friends were sitting around after dinner and I asked him about his 'tulkuhood'. He didn't wear robes, engaged in business, and lived like a business man. He told me in all seriousness that they had made a mistake choosing him. It's not something he wanted. Because of his deep felt responsibility for all the people around him, he continued in that role and did business to support his monasteries, but he really didn't want to be in that role. It brought a lot of problems to him.

When I asked him questions about teachings, he was very forthcoming and you could see his erudition. What a character he was!

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lelopa
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by lelopa » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:47 am

Anonymous X wrote:.........................
.....................
..........................
He told me in all seriousness that they had made a mistake choosing him. It's not something he wanted..................
.........................
.........................
He is not the only one......
f.e. the younger brother of HH Dalai Lama said in the 70's something like:
"I do not feel I am Ngari Rinpoche.... they must have made a mistake in finding me!"
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

zenman
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by zenman » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:50 am

Recently I listened to John Yates aka Culadasa's interview at Buddha At The Gas Pump. His take on tulkus is kind of unique and I guess different from the traditional view. I cannot remember when in the interview he talked about this but anyone interested can find it there.

smcj
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:30 am

The documentary about ChNN's tulku son is interesting. There's a lot of ChNN in it too, which would be of interest to those in the DC. It is called "My Reincarnation".
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Miroku
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Miroku » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:41 am

lelopa wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:.........................
.....................
..........................
He told me in all seriousness that they had made a mistake choosing him. It's not something he wanted..................
.........................
.........................
He is not the only one......
f.e. the younger brother of HH Dalai Lama said in the 70's something like:
"I do not feel I am Ngari Rinpoche.... they must have made a mistake in finding me!"
This attitude seems to be pretty common amongst tulkus. For example if I remember well, even Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse rinpoche sometimes mentions that people might have made a mistake while choosing him.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Anonymous X
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Anonymous X » Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:49 am

Miroku wrote:
lelopa wrote:
Anonymous X wrote:.........................
.....................
..........................
He told me in all seriousness that they had made a mistake choosing him. It's not something he wanted..................
.........................
.........................
He is not the only one......
f.e. the younger brother of HH Dalai Lama said in the 70's something like:
"I do not feel I am Ngari Rinpoche.... they must have made a mistake in finding me!"
This attitude seems to be pretty common amongst tulkus. For example if I remember well, even Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse rinpoche sometimes mentions that people might have made a mistake while choosing him.
I'm sure the process of selection is not infallible. Seems to me this is a very gray area.

smcj
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by smcj » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:12 pm

This attitude seems to be pretty common amongst tulkus]
Between honest mistakes, politically motivated recognition (think Chinese XV Dalai Lama), renegade tulkus, and simple modesty, I think that downplaying one's tulku status is the wise course of action.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Virgo
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Virgo » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:22 pm

AlexanderS wrote:I've read before that in Tibet they believed that if a tulku is not recognized and enthroned then that tulku will develop a mental ilness because they are not fulfilling their purpose in life. I was wondering if anyone could suggest some reading on this or explain in more detail this belief?
This is something I would really questions, unless I saw it in an authoratative text.

Kevin
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Miroku
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Miroku » Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:52 pm

smcj wrote:
This attitude seems to be pretty common amongst tulkus]
Between honest mistakes, politically motivated recognition (think Chinese XV Dalai Lama), renegade tulkus, and simple modesty, I think that downplaying one's tulku status is the wise course of action.
That definetly is the wisest thing to do. Some tulkus are treated like real masters although they have barely finished their studies. Sometimes we forget that even tulkus still have to have an experience and meditate a lot before being real masters.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:18 pm

Miroku wrote:
smcj wrote:
This attitude seems to be pretty common amongst tulkus]
Between honest mistakes, politically motivated recognition (think Chinese XV Dalai Lama), renegade tulkus, and simple modesty, I think that downplaying one's tulku status is the wise course of action.
That definetly is the wisest thing to do. Some tulkus are treated like real masters although they have barely finished their studies. Sometimes we forget that even tulkus still have to have an experience and meditate a lot before being real masters.
Recently read this in WoMPT:
Important tulkus recognized as authentic incarnations of great teachers of the past still have to learn how to read again, and start with the alphabet just like ordinary people. Since they have forgotten the art of reading from their previous lives, there can be little doubt that they must have forgotten everything they ever knew about the yogas of the generation and perfection phases too. I wonder whether they would not do better to spend a little time training in bodhicitta and learning about practice and retreats, rather than going around looking for offerings as soon as they can ride a horse.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Miroku
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Miroku » Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:58 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Miroku wrote:
smcj wrote: Between honest mistakes, politically motivated recognition (think Chinese XV Dalai Lama), renegade tulkus, and simple modesty, I think that downplaying one's tulku status is the wise course of action.
That definetly is the wisest thing to do. Some tulkus are treated like real masters although they have barely finished their studies. Sometimes we forget that even tulkus still have to have an experience and meditate a lot before being real masters.
Recently read this in WoMPT:
Important tulkus recognized as authentic incarnations of great teachers of the past still have to learn how to read again, and start with the alphabet just like ordinary people. Since they have forgotten the art of reading from their previous lives, there can be little doubt that they must have forgotten everything they ever knew about the yogas of the generation and perfection phases too. I wonder whether they would not do better to spend a little time training in bodhicitta and learning about practice and retreats, rather than going around looking for offerings as soon as they can ride a horse.
Patrul Rinpoche is right once again.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Aryjna
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by Aryjna » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:48 pm

Isn't it absurd that a great master can 'fall to evil' just like that, only because he wasn't found? This seem to make little sense from a logical point of view, and defeat the purpose of the whole thing.

AlexanderS
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Re: Question about Tulkus

Post by AlexanderS » Fri May 05, 2017 6:35 pm

Aryjna wrote:Isn't it absurd that a great master can 'fall to evil' just like that, only because he wasn't found? This seem to make little sense from a logical point of view, and defeat the purpose of the whole thing.
Would definitely be quite absurd. My original question though was more about tulkus developing ilness and obstacles rather than "falling to the dark side".

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