Re: Question for you guys
Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:51 pm
remember "Kung Fu - Panda" there is no secret ingredient just an empty paper and noodle soup made with heart
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kirtu wrote: There are no actual secrets. The highest teaching is ultimate compassion
Not sure if this is actually true. Because I vaguely remember reading a certain sectarian Chan monk writing a polemic attack on Tibetan Buddhism (which he called "Lamaism") where he made this same statement: that the rituals themselves are just expedient means, that the Lamas themselves really have no power, and the "secret mantra," is not something any of them could recite; the secret mantra is in the mind; Buddha-nature.Individual wrote: If that is true, it seems to me that is the secret. If anybody including Tibetan Buddhists knew it, they would not take their Lamas and esoteric practices seriously. Not taking them as seriously, there would be no gain.
Hanzze wrote:remember "Kung Fu - Panda" there is no secret ingredient just an empty paper and noodle soup made with heart
Samaya is not there for the teacher.Individual wrote: Samaya vows and money, yes. I am already a slave to my own mind. I would gain nothing from being a slave to someone else.
PemaRigdzin wrote: You seem to really have a bone to pick with Vajrayana. Makes me wonder why you'd even be interested.
????? If a person if practicing Tibetan Buddhism then they have to follow the instructions of the lamas. The lamas are the representatives of Shakyamuni Buddha and Padmasambhava. High lamas and many tulkus are either a kind of emmanation of Padmasambhava or are blessed by Padmasambhava (this is directly from a teaching that HH Penor Rinpoche gave in 2003). Similarly in other traditions one can see lamas and esp.high lamas as emanations of the wisdom mind of the Buddhas or great practitioners. Being such, they are doctors trying to heal you of the sickness of wandering in samsara and being a slave to delusion.Individual wrote: If that is true, it seems to me that is the secret. If anybody including Tibetan Buddhists knew it, they would not take their Lamas and esoteric practices seriously. Not taking them as seriously, there would be no gain.
People can understand different things by what I have said. Ultimately esoteric Buddhism (Vajrayana) is not really esoteric. The highest teaching is Great Compassion - compassion for all beings everywhere and the ultimate wisdom of Buddhahood. Compassion is like a philosopher's stone from alchemy that transforms beings from being an ordinary being to setting them on the path to Buddhahood (Lama Kalsang and every other lama I have ever taken teachings from have said this). Wisdom is harder to get a handle on which is why we study Buddhist philosophy. And it is even harder to see the inseparability of wisdom and compassion.Individual wrote:kirtu wrote: There are no actual secrets. The highest teaching is ultimate compassionNot sure if this is actually true. Because I vaguely remember reading a certain sectarian Chan monk writing a polemic attack on Tibetan Buddhism (which he called "Lamaism") where he made this same statement: that the rituals themselves are just expedient means, that the Lamas themselves really have no power, and the "secret mantra," is not something any of them could recite; the secret mantra is in the mind; Buddha-nature.Individual wrote: If that is true, it seems to me that is the secret. If anybody including Tibetan Buddhists knew it, they would not take their Lamas and esoteric practices seriously. Not taking them as seriously, there would be no gain.
It is hard for me to believe any Tibetan Buddhist would agree with this. It is conceivable, though, that they might tell me this to make me disinterested.
kirtu wrote:People can understand different things by what I have said. Ultimately esoteric Buddhism (Vajrayana) is not really esoteric. The highest teaching is Great Compassion - compassion for all beings everywhere and the ultimate wisdom of Buddhahood. Compassion is like a philosopher's stone from alchemy that transforms beings from being an ordinary being to setting them on the path to Buddhahood (Lama Kalsang and every other lama I have ever taken teachings from have said this). Wisdom is harder to get a handle on which is why we study Buddhist philosophy. And it is even harder to see the inseparability of wisdom and compassion.Individual wrote:kirtu wrote: There are no actual secrets. The highest teaching is ultimate compassionNot sure if this is actually true. Because I vaguely remember reading a certain sectarian Chan monk writing a polemic attack on Tibetan Buddhism (which he called "Lamaism") where he made this same statement: that the rituals themselves are just expedient means, that the Lamas themselves really have no power, and the "secret mantra," is not something any of them could recite; the secret mantra is in the mind; Buddha-nature.Individual wrote: If that is true, it seems to me that is the secret. If anybody including Tibetan Buddhists knew it, they would not take their Lamas and esoteric practices seriously. Not taking them as seriously, there would be no gain.
It is hard for me to believe any Tibetan Buddhist would agree with this. It is conceivable, though, that they might tell me this to make me disinterested.
As for compassion being the highest teaching many lamas have said this. It's just when we really get deeply into this we can find that things "get complex" because in a way sentient beings minds are complex although ultimately they are very simple - just being perfect wisdom and compassion and not even being two things - they are just the same thing. And going deeper we find they are not anything at all. But before we get there we are still prone to getting mad at others, generating and following desire and fear, and making the world miserable for ourselves and others in a misguided attempt to pursue pleasure and our own ignorant inclinations (for example at the end of this sexual desire arose once again in my mind - as a computer professional I get angry at the poor performance of software daily, etc.)
Tibetan Buddhist lamas would generally agree with this Chan monk as you have written his criticism: Buddhamind is the ultimate mantra (didn't HE Kalu Rinpoche say this word for word?), rituals do nothing at all in and of themselves - they are expedient means (but does that mean that they don't do anything?) , lamas have no power - well some lamas don't have obvious siddhi and the others don't show them off but to mean literally that lamas don't have power is wrong - they at least have some teaching that followed to it's conclusion will result in Buddhahood so that is the ultimate power - as Lama Phabonka says in comentary on Lama Tsongkapa's "The Principal Teachings of Buddhism" - don't tell me about flying or walking on the ceiling - the greatest miracle is transforming one negative thought ...
Also what I have written could be misunderstood because the teachings also say that you can have compassion without wisdom and wisdom without compassion. And also people get entranced with selflessness and emptiness. But what I mean is that ultimately perfected wisdom and perfected compassion are inseparable and the lamas tell us on Day 1 that compassion is the highest secret - it's just that we have to develop it to it's ultimate expression. In the ultimate expression of compassion you'd see that there is no actual self and other and that ultimate compassion is emptiness.
Kirt
This is a common misinterpretation of Vajrayana. Lamas don't demand that their students act like their slaves. They allow students to do things for them out of kindness so that students can accumulate good karma by doing these things. Doing anything to benefit a Buddhist teacher or a Buddhist center is always a good thing.Individual wrote: Samaya vows and money, yes. I am already a slave to my own mind. I would gain nothing from being a slave to someone else.
My point was that it's as impolite to walk up to lama whom you've never met before and ask for his highest teachings right away, as it would be to walk up to someone you don't know and demand an expensive present.Individual wrote: A present?
kirtu wrote: There are no actual secrets. The highest teaching is ultimate compassion
Why would this prevent Tibetan Buddhist from taking their practices seriously? On the contrary the true nature of the mind which has the characteristics of ultimate compassion and ultimate wisdom is the goal which drives Tibetan Buddhists to do their practices. The practices are fantastic tools to help us work towards this.Individual wrote: If that is true, it seems to me that is the secret. If anybody including Tibetan Buddhists knew it, they would not take their Lamas and esoteric practices seriously. Not taking them as seriously, there would be no gain.
Actually yes, it is understood that the rituals themselves are just expedient means of creating conducive interdependent situations for actualizing inner results, and that ultimately, the mantra is a manifestation of enlightened mind to facilitate one's discovery of one's own true, enlightened nature which is qualitatively identical to whatever buddha one is meditating on. It is not the case that, however, highly realized lamas have no power. If one is highly realized, one will always have some "power." However, the reach of that power is largely limited by the mental and emotional obscurations of the students and their degree of openness. It's kind of like a more complex "you can lead a horse to water" type situation. Even highly realized lamas - or even a Buddha - can't waive a magic wand to liberate people from their ignorance and negative karma, otherwise through their great compassion they would have already done that; instead, the Buddha said that he has shown us the way, but we must do the work ourselves. But for those students who have faith in pure and realized lamas, for those students that try to uphold pure ethics, who are intent on taming their minds, and who are very present, there can definitely be some profound interaction and enlightened influence. This is because that which the lama has realized within himself/herself is the same thing that the student has within, and that nature ultimately transcends conditioned ideas of self, other, existing, not existing, and all our ordinary concepts.Individual wrote: Because I vaguely remember reading a certain sectarian Chan monk writing a polemic attack on Tibetan Buddhism (which he called "Lamaism") where he made this same statement: that the rituals themselves are just expedient means, that the Lamas themselves really have no power, and the "secret mantra," is not something any of them could recite; the secret mantra is in the mind; Buddha-nature.
It is hard for me to believe any Tibetan Buddhist would agree with this. It is conceivable, though, that they might tell me this to make me disinterested.
This idea of devotion in Vajrayana is such a misunderstood thing. I think many people like Individual that can't get down with this "devotion" business assume it's intended that one should meet a teacher that resonates with one and then just try to start fabricating some devotion to the teacher because that's the only way the magic works. I suppose there have been so many different kinds of cults exposed over the decades where some sort of baseless, mindless devotion was demanded of the followers that this misunderstanding isn't so surprising, but it's not how devotion in tantric Buddhism works. I'll give an example of how devotion to my teachers began to arise in me. Particularly my two main lamas who, were brothers and always taught together (I say "were" and "taught" because one of them has since passed away). They were so positive, so patient, so full of clearly uncontrived joy, so giving (constantly traveling and teaching endlessly all day long for days and seeing students privately who'd asked for interviews for personal guidance, and all the time these lamas are never asking for anything - at teachings, long-time students who'd taken on a leadership role at their different centers would request that we make some meager donation to cover the costs of the Rinpoches' expenses and a tiny bit extra as a small token of our appreciation, which has always been traditional in Buddhism)... They basically just embodied love and compassion and generosity and joy and wisdom, and that was the core of what they were teaching, although all the while the Dzogchen view was also being introduced very inconspicuously (and I didn't even know what Dzogchen was at that time anyway)... Before I'd experienced for myself any of the truth of what they taught about mind and reality, I already knew that at the very least, these two men - vivid embodiments of love, joy, and wisdom - were exactly how I aspired to be.Luke wrote: If you resent the thought of having deep devotion to a teacher, then Vajrayana may not be for you because guru devotion is really the heart of Vajrayana.
That's awesome! I love it when I see two lamas joyfully interacting with each other. I guess there's more "Buddha activity" to easily observe when there's two of them...Pema Rigdzin wrote:Particularly my two main lamas who, were brothers and always taught together
It is similar to your going to an astronomist, like Carl Sagan for example, and saying that you want to know all his secrets, what would he say?Individual wrote:Let's say I go to all the Lamas out there with the following request:
"I wish to know all your secrets, without having any obligations."
Which Lamas would say yes?
If none, then of all the Lamas that don't simply say, "No," which Lama(s) would be most likely to give me an interesting and useful answer?
Excellent post. This is they way it should be. It mirrors my own experience.Pema Rigdzin wrote:This idea of devotion in Vajrayana is such a misunderstood thing. I think many people like Individual that can't get down with this "devotion" business assume it's intended that one should meet a teacher that resonates with one and then just try to start fabricating some devotion to the teacher because that's the only way the magic works. I suppose there have been so many different kinds of cults exposed over the decades where some sort of baseless, mindless devotion was demanded of the followers that this misunderstanding isn't so surprising, but it's not how devotion in tantric Buddhism works. I'll give an example of how devotion to my teachers began to arise in me. Particularly my two main lamas who, were brothers and always taught together (I say "were" and "taught" because one of them has since passed away). They were so positive, so patient, so full of clearly uncontrived joy, so giving (constantly traveling and teaching endlessly all day long for days and seeing students privately who'd asked for interviews for personal guidance, and all the time these lamas are never asking for anything - at teachings, long-time students who'd taken on a leadership role at their different centers would request that we make some meager donation to cover the costs of the Rinpoches' expenses and a tiny bit extra as a small token of our appreciation, which has always been traditional in Buddhism)... They basically just embodied love and compassion and generosity and joy and wisdom, and that was the core of what they were teaching, although all the while the Dzogchen view was also being introduced very inconspicuously (and I didn't even know what Dzogchen was at that time anyway)... Before I'd experienced for myself any of the truth of what they taught about mind and reality, I already knew that at the very least, these two men - vivid embodiments of love, joy, and wisdom - were exactly how I aspired to be.Luke wrote: If you resent the thought of having deep devotion to a teacher, then Vajrayana may not be for you because guru devotion is really the heart of Vajrayana.
Over time, as I put to practice the teachings they taught us, and I gained experiential understanding (nothing so profound, but just real because I'd experienced it and not just believed in it), and that personal experience began to reduce my own suffering and make me want to help others (at least in a worldly sense in line with my limited capacity), my appreciation and thankfulness to my lamas and to the Dharma, and therefore the Three Jewels, just kept sprouting and growing naturally... I've also seen many times how advice they gave me that I didn't immediately understand or which was kind of differing from what I wanted to hear eventually came in very handy as situations in my life arose that were very particular and to which the advice I'd receive not long before suddenly seemed very relevant. Like they knew how my life would develop in a very specialized way, not vague or general at all, and they gave advice from that view of things. This has happened many times and I have never been prone to magical thinking... I came to Buddhism very skeptical, actually. So all of this devotion arose and developed very organically and gradually, and as it increased, my meditation deepened and I began to feel tapped in to some wisdom on some level that was guiding me, always leading me in the right direction... impossible to say whether it's mine or my lamas. I really feel like it's a confluence of the two... that as I begin to recognize in myself what I've seen in my lamas all along, my own wisdom is uncovered little by little. That's how it works. One doesn't become a slave to anyone. If one practices correctly and diligently, one begins to cease to be a slave to one's ego and pride, though.
Well, THERE is the secret, huh?!?If one practices correctly and diligently, one begins to cease to be a slave to one's ego and pride, though.
Thank you, conebeckham, but he might be right. Sometimes, it does feel like a subconscious sense of mischief underlies some of the stuff I do and say. But it's pretty subtle and not something I do consciously or intentionally, like, "Oh boy, this will REALLLLY get those Vajrayanists stirred up! Mwahahahahaha!"conebeckham wrote:We're all attention seeking and attention getting....all of us.
But some of us are merely proliferating concepts of our own and foisting them out there, while others at least are trying to work with the teachings they've been given, trying to learn, and likely there's a bit of "good motivation" mixed in there somewhere as well, for some of us. You know, working together to further our mutual understanding......
Just to be boring; when we are genuine practicioners, want to recognize our nature and at the meantime the aim to have attention, worldly distractions, we can forget it! Cheating own being and wasting life. Arent' we cool?conebeckham wrote:We're all attention seeking and attention getting....all of us.
But some of us are merely proliferating concepts of our own and foisting them out there, while others at least are trying to work with the teachings they've been given, trying to learn, and likely there's a bit of "good motivation" mixed in there somewhere as well, for some of us. You know, working together to further our mutual understanding......
Well, I wouldn't immediately go running to a Freudian explanation. The Buddhist explanation is that the force of our previous karma is very strong--it's like a raging river which pushes us along.Individual wrote: Sometimes, it does feel like a subconscious sense of mischief underlies some of the stuff I do and say.