Crisis of Faith

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Konchog1
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Crisis of Faith

Post by Konchog1 » Fri May 26, 2017 3:00 am

I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

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Virgo
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Virgo » Fri May 26, 2017 3:56 am

This idea is very wrong. For example, Manjushri stated that he appeared in other forms and taught the Shaivite and Vishnavaite mantras originally. This is because people did not have the ability to believe or perceive the whole truth. It takes much more merit to enter the Buddhist path to enlightenment.

The Medicine Buddha stated that the Buddhas appeared as Hindu gods to teach Ayurveda, etc.

These distinctions are very important.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

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Norwegian
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Norwegian » Fri May 26, 2017 4:08 am

You should read Wedemeyer's Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism. His book is very thorough.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=18268

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Virgo
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Virgo » Fri May 26, 2017 5:41 am

Virgo wrote:This idea is incorrect. Manjushri stated that he appeared and taught the Shaivite and Vishnavaite tantras originally.

This is very important.

Kevin
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPcu7F7gWg

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by amanitamusc » Fri May 26, 2017 7:18 am

Norwegian wrote:You should read Wedemeyer's Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism. His book is very thorough.

https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=18268
There is a vid on this page with Christian K. Wedemeyer, Associate Professor of the History of Religions. Jeffrey Stackert, Assistant Professor of Hebrew Bible, and Brook A. Ziporyn, Professor of Chinese Religion, Philosophy, and Comparative Thought, responding. 
Giving thoughts and asking questions about the book.http://divinity.uchicago.edu/christian-k-wedemeyer

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri May 26, 2017 8:41 am

Konchog1 wrote:I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
You don't need faith. Look at the superior concept. Buddha taught wisdom as a method and the methods are skills. And the skills are all lies that cut themselves down and leave open the door to pure perception, perception, not reality or truth but just a very clear eye. Think about this deeply and check if Shiva did that or not. Buddha is a pure relativist and Shiva is an absolutist. So of course Buddha would appear in the guise of whatever a person is into for the purpose of planting a skillful lie that breaks open the door to pure perception of the situation. Remember, we are talking about mirror-like wisdom. This is a mind that reflects what is really going on, no self-deception. Nothing more than this.
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heart
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by heart » Fri May 26, 2017 9:08 am

Konchog1 wrote:I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
Science is not always very helpful for practitioners because truth is a moving target in science. You have to keep that in mind while reading this kind of material. The question who copied who and what is the oldest and so on will change. There isn't really a a religion called Hinduism anyway, it is actually a great number of different religions that have changed considerably over time. A few of the 84 Mahasiddhas actually practiced "Hindu" tantras but their storys have been faithfully transmitted in Tibet for a 1000 years, there is something there to have faith in.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Wayfarer » Fri May 26, 2017 11:08 am

Konchog1 wrote:Just a copy of the Hindus?
My feeling on that is that, there are (at least) two perspectives on this question. From the perspective of 'being Buddhist', then the differentiation with Hinduism is very important. As the two traditions grew up alongside one another, and greatly influenced each other by making each side in the debate differentiate themselves from their opponents. That happened over many many centuries. SO from the perspective of one side, the other side is 'the other', who one differentiated one's own tradition from. So maintaining that differentiation is a matter of principle, and an important one.

But from another perspective, both traditions are concerned with spiritual liberation, which is 'transcending the realm of birth and death'. They obviously differ greatly in many ways, but I think their differences are much more apparent from within the respective traditions, than from outside it.

And in some ways, we will be 'outside' it, because we live in a different culture again, namely modern global culture, which has many sources and is a huge conglomeration of ideas, and which can therefore think about such matters in a way that is neither Buddhist nor Hindu. That is what facilitates the kind of comparative analysis that is found in 'studies in religion', where the different influences and sources in the various traditions are identified and analysed in a kind of forensic way.

So perhaps being able to view such studies from the perspective of 'comparative religion' requires adopting a different kind of attitude to the 'inner' perspective of being a practitioner. It isn't necessarily a superior perspective, or an inferior perspective, but a different perspective. We were taught, when I studied comparative religion, to 'bracket' our own religious practices or views when dealing with these kinds of ideas in a comparative way, just so as to be able to evaluate the sources critically, which is not necessarily the same as evaluating them 'confessionally', so to speak. That way you can evaluate such ideas in a detached way, without necessarily compromising what you personally understand to be the superior or ultimate approach.

Don't know if that will help or not.

(Wedermeyer's book got stolen from my Uni library, otherwise I would have gotten hold of it.)
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by MiphamFan » Fri May 26, 2017 11:45 am

Intertexuality != Copying

That's one of the points of Wedemeyer's book.

Following his book I personally am reasonably convinced that it is more likely that "transgressive" tantras (mahayoga, later yoginitantras and niruttaratantras) originated in Buddhist contexts rather than Hindu ones. Copying per se means straight out lifting, but the Buddhist tantras clearly are planted in a Buddhist context, showing a lot of sophistication and blending in of Buddhist doctrines (abhidharma, madhyamaka etc) -- this clearly goes beyond mere "copying". What's more a lot of the outright "transgressive" language that straight out goes against Brahmanical norms first appears in Buddhist tantras while the Shaivite tantras align quite closely to Brahmanical norms and laws.

Imagine an Indian Brahman back in circa 7th century CE. You read side-by-side a Hindu tantra and a Buddhist tantra. If the Buddhist one is a straight copy of the Hindu one, why would you even follow it?

For me personally, I don't see it as that important which tantras were first. I have confidence born from personal experience of the teachings of my teachers and it checks out with logical reasoning as well. Historical speculations are all ultimately unverifiable opinions unless someone invents a time machine.

John Michael Greer has a few interesting articles on a similar issue in neo-pagan circles: http://galabes.blogspot.com/2017/05/gno ... -kind.html

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Tolya M » Fri May 26, 2017 12:01 pm

It is like chaitya where pre-buddhist shramanas were buried. It's meaning is perfectly revolved according to the some kind of apodictic Buddhadharma. So is Cakrasamvara, descended upon the Maheshvara celestial palace )))

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by byamspa » Fri May 26, 2017 1:18 pm

if a method works, it works, doesn't really matter where it was sourced from.

What comes to mind is the idea of motivation, as in what is the motivation behind the method being used? If the motivation is Bodhicitta and wisdom, doesn't really matter if the method is mindful public toilet cleaning. What matters is that it works with the motivation to be of benefit to all beings.

It also helps to trust your root guru and ask them about something if it gives you pause. Don't believe everything you read in books or on the interwebs.

If its my root guru who gave me the secret esoteric instructions for the method of mindful public toilet cleaning, yep, i will do it, i know it will work because they told me it would :).

Faith is confidence in what you're doing and why you're doing it. Its not blind.
Phenomenon, vast as space, dharmata is your base, arising and falling like ocean tide cycles, why do i cling to your illusion of unceasing changlessness?

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri May 26, 2017 2:57 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
What?

Well, that's it, I'm out.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by ClearblueSky » Fri May 26, 2017 4:19 pm

Konchog1 wrote: It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
Maybe. I think it touches on something deeper though, which is: "If __ is just a copy/cultural influence/myth, is __ still a valid path to enlightenment?"

Buddhist tantras seem to be influenced by other tantras/traditions. The objects deities hold reflect the time and culture the teaching was from (which could be because of perfect manifestations, or it could be because they are just from human imagination). There is not much historical proof that Buddha Shakyamuni existed. Many "relative" things from teachings are flat-out wrong, such as how the earth is composed. Omniscient mahasiddhas make metaphors to nature in dohas that we now know are totally inaccurate.

If all those things are the case, is the Dharma still a valid teaching? I think so, but since we can't really know until we're enlightened, I think it's a valid question.

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by smcj » Fri May 26, 2017 4:46 pm

Faith is confidence in what you're doing and why you're doing it. Its not blind.
Actually it's attachment to believing that things are as they appear that is blind.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Josef » Fri May 26, 2017 8:40 pm

byamspa wrote:if a method works, it works, doesn't really matter where it was sourced from.

What comes to mind is the idea of motivation, as in what is the motivation behind the method being used? If the motivation is Bodhicitta and wisdom, doesn't really matter if the method is mindful public toilet cleaning. What matters is that it works with the motivation to be of benefit to all beings.

It also helps to trust your root guru and ask them about something if it gives you pause. Don't believe everything you read in books or on the interwebs.

If its my root guru who gave me the secret esoteric instructions for the method of mindful public toilet cleaning, yep, i will do it, i know it will work because they told me it would :).

Faith is confidence in what you're doing and why you're doing it. Its not blind.
This! :good:
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat May 27, 2017 12:57 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
Does hindu tantra uphold the mahāyāna or bodhisattva yāna?

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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 27, 2017 3:07 pm

Konchog1 wrote:I'm been reading:

http://www.sutrajournal.com/the-tantric ... her-wallis
http://www.alexissanderson.com/uploads/ ... va_age.pdf

It says that half of the Cakrasamvara tantra was copied from an earlier Shivite tantra with some Buddhist language added.

Furthermore, many Anuttarayoga rituals and concepts first appear in Shivite tantras.

So what's the explanation? Doesn't this mean that Anuttarayoga is not from the Buddha and not a path to Enlightenment? Just a copy of the Hindus?

Help.
Well... If this so earth-shatteringly important to you you could just avoid the specific practices and focus just on Sutra (for example).

Another option is to examine these practices via the prism of the Four Dharma Seals, if they satisfy the requirements, then theoretically they are Dharma and so...

Another way to look at the situation is like this: Hindus (since Hinduism predates Buddhism anyway) make offerings of light (ie candles) to their deities, so Buddhism must have stolen the practice from Hindus and thus the practice is not Buddhist! [Pointless hysterical self-flagellation follows...]

So many choices...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Kaccāni
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Kaccāni » Sat May 27, 2017 3:24 pm

Let's suggest you hear somebody say something that does make sense to you, that you believe. Then you have faith.
Then somebody comes and tells you something that questions the ethics of that particular person. So you get doubts, the opposite of faith.
Then you acquire faith in those new thoughts, opinions or paths.
Unless somebody comes and questions the practice of your new guru. Tells you something that does not resonate well with what you want to attribute to your ideal notion of guru or doctrine. Doubts, Non-faith.
Then comes Buddha who tells you to cast away all those concepts, that there is no animism, no souls, just the world as it is. And a method to realize this. You have faith in that. But you fail to grasp the ultimate meaning of emptiness being also emtpy. So somebody comes and tells you that your practice or path or concept of liberation is also but a concept.
So you buy into the second turning, faith renewed. But if practice is ultimately non-existent, faith is too.
So you approach your faith with the notion that it is ultimately non-faith and roll your eyes at the third turning, screaming:
All ye scribes and prophets. Just let me go on with ths life, it's complicated enough as it is.
Not that it wouldn't do that anyway.
So what to do with your faith?
Try to stop the flow of the world with mere mental effort and develop the deep faith that it is impossible to do so. A good thing to have faith in.

Best
Kc
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Sādhaka » Sat May 27, 2017 6:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:(since Hinduism predates Buddhism anyway)
Wikipedia, just for quick & convenient reference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ed_Buddhas

I'm sure you're aware of this^.

And the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche predates so-called Hinduism etc.

I guess it just depends on if one goes by what the Sutras say or by what scholars say....
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Grigoris
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Re: Crisis of Faith

Post by Grigoris » Sat May 27, 2017 6:36 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Grigoris wrote:(since Hinduism predates Buddhism anyway)
Wikipedia, just for quick & convenient reference.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ed_Buddhas

I'm sure you're aware of this^.

And the Buddha Tonpa Shenrab Miwoche predates so-called Hinduism etc.

I guess it just depends on if one goes by what the Sutras say or by what scholars say....
I am talking about the dispensation of Buddha Shakyamuni. That is what we generally refer to as Buddhism, right? The Dispensation (Buddhism) of each previous Buddha dies out COMPLETELY before the appearance of the next Buddha.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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