Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

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CedarTree
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Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

I stumbled upon a teaching from Jackson Peterson who appears to be a Dzogchen teacher. The teaching and it's presentation resonated with me as it seems very true to my Zen experience and perspective.

Lately I have been finding a great interest in Mahamudra and specifically Dzogchen as I have noticed that it seems to help "broaden" the teachings from say what someone may be presented with in Zen.

This is of interest to me as when I finally started to get my bearings in the Simply Sitting method of traditions like Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery and Antaiji I began to think of Meditation and the whole practice completely different.

Can anyone recommend any good centers, teachers, written presentation of the teachings like how Bhikkhu Thanissaro - Ajaan Geoff so eloquently presents the Theravada teachings from a Pali Canon context?

The teaching I am referring to is below:

Imagine at night that you find yourself in a dream facing a tiger, you are in complete fear. Then suddenly the dream ceases and you are not in the dream nor awake, and no new dream has yet started. There is not even the consciousness of you being present.



Then suddenly a new dream starts and you are mountain climbing. The view is beautiful and you feel serene. Then the dream ceases . There is no longer any "you" or sense of presence; just an empty blank, not noticed. Then the next dream arises...



Between the dreams no continuing self carried over from the dream into the empty blank moment between the dreams. When the next dream started a completely new self appeared that had no connection to the previous self. That self lasted only as long as each dream.



Likewise during our "waking" day, a complete sense of self as who we seem to be, is arising and completely disappearing in every second. There is no continuing "you" as an entity that is continuing from moment to moment. Each moment is a new daydream "me" unconnected to the previous momentary "me". There is no self identity that continues from moment to moment nor from lifetime to life time. But because the moments of the "me" projection occur so closely together, the mind creates the illusion of a continuing "me".



When we sit in quiet meditation, and just observe the mental activity, it's possible to notice how the "me" is just the current thought "me", with no single "me" as a continuing entity bridging the gaps between the "me" thoughts. This is noticed when the mind's activity slows way down naturally.



By recognizing the non-existence of a continuing "me", nothing could exist as "mine". Which "me" do things belong to if no "me" actually exists in time, as an owner? Who owns the "karma"? What karma? If the "me" is just a momentary inanimate thought with no autonomy and no duration, "who" ever did anything?



Seeing this clearly; hasn't samsara lost its foundation completely?



Seeing this clearly, who is there to enter nirvana?



Finding no one to be in, or ever had been in samsara, and not finding anyone remaining to enter nirvana; what greater nirvana could there be?

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Norwegian
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Norwegian »

I stumbled upon a teaching from Jackson Peterson who appears to be a Dzogchen teacher.
This person is not qualified to teach Dzogchen in any way, shape, or form. Nor does he have a proper understanding of Dzogchen.
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Vasana »

In terms of Dzogchen teachers who speak eloquently like the excerpt you shared, I reccomend James Low who has been authorized to teach and is qualified to do so. He has a really great way with words, metaphors and storytelling and often speaks in a way similar to the quote you shared. There's loads of downloadable audio and ebooks on his simplybeing website and loads of videos of his teaching retreats on vimeo.

https://vimeo.com/jameslow/videos

Jackson Peterson tends to get a negative reaction here for reasons that quickly become clear when you compare his views with what other Dzogchen teachers actually teach and what the root texts actually say themselves. If you find his teachings helpful that's great but just don't rely on single teacher's exposition until you have at least heard and read from a few more teachers to get an idea of how it's all usually explained and transmitted.

You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation..
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
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CedarTree
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

Vasana wrote:In terms of Dzogchen teachers who speak eloquently like the excerpt you shared, I reccomend James Low who has been authorized to teach and is qualified to do so. He has a really great way with words, metaphors and storytelling and often speaks in a way similar to the quote you shared. There's loads of downloadable audio and ebooks on his simplybeing website and loads of videos of his teaching retreats on vimeo.

https://vimeo.com/jameslow/videos

Jackson Peterson tends to get a negative reaction here for reasons that quickly become clear when you compare his views with what other Dzogchen teachers actually teach and what the root texts actually say themselves. If you find his teachings helpful that's great but just don't rely on single teacher's exposition until you have at least heard and read from a few more teachers to get an idea of how it's all usually explained and transmitted.

You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation..
Thanks for the information Vasana, you understood my question. Since I am just pasting one quote from this man I am not aligning myself with his teachings just that one quote spoke very true I believe to Zen practice. Can you or someone explain how his overall teachings differ and contrast with Dzoghen?

I will check out James Low right now :)

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CedarTree
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

Norwegian wrote:
I stumbled upon a teaching from Jackson Peterson who appears to be a Dzogchen teacher.
This person is not qualified to teach Dzogchen in any way, shape, or form. Nor does he have a proper understanding of Dzogchen.
Can you elaborate?

Since I don't know his full body of work and am in a sense simply working off that one piece of material which seems very on point I would like to be more informed about how he is so off base in your opinion and contrast that with what is on base :)

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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by krodha »

CedarTree wrote:I stumbled upon a teaching from Jackson Peterson who appears to be a Dzogchen teacher.
"Appears" being the operative term.
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by heart »

CedarTree wrote:
Norwegian wrote:
I stumbled upon a teaching from Jackson Peterson who appears to be a Dzogchen teacher.
This person is not qualified to teach Dzogchen in any way, shape, or form. Nor does he have a proper understanding of Dzogchen.
Can you elaborate?

Since I don't know his full body of work and am in a sense simply working off that one piece of material which seems very on point I would like to be more informed about how he is so off base in your opinion and contrast that with what is on base :)
Try reading a little bit about real Dzogchen, then you will know by yourself. It is worth the effort.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

heart wrote:
CedarTree wrote:
Norwegian wrote: This person is not qualified to teach Dzogchen in any way, shape, or form. Nor does he have a proper understanding of Dzogchen.
Can you elaborate?

Since I don't know his full body of work and am in a sense simply working off that one piece of material which seems very on point I would like to be more informed about how he is so off base in your opinion and contrast that with what is on base :)
Try reading a little bit about real Dzogchen, then you will know by yourself. It is worth the effort.

/magnus
heart I am trying to and I earnest mean that. I am impressed by some of the breadth of those teachings though I have to admit it is like learning a new Buddhist language. Almost reminds me of when I first came in contact with Buddhism and thought to myself "This is insane".

You have to learn the language and start understanding the framework and I am trying to do that in this case in an honest fashion.

I no allegiance to this teacher, I simply posted a quote that I think appears on point, maybe in the context of his broader teachings it isn't and that is fine.

However no one here yet has offer a substantive rebuttal or where he is off base in his teachings, etc.

Simply slandering a man or a perspective isn't something I have come to respect all that much. Substance and quality I do respect as it improves everyone and corrects misunderstandings and confusion.

Something everyone practicing in a Mahayana and or Tantric framework should be doing, since that is part of all our bodhisattva vows.

Anyway I am honestly looking forward to being corrected and shown more info, it is after all why I posted this. :anjali:

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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by justsit »

You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us.

Vasana offered excellent advice: "You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation."

Read those things and you will be able to see for yourself where Jackson Peterson is off base.
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by heart »

CedarTree wrote:
heart wrote:
CedarTree wrote:
Can you elaborate?

Since I don't know his full body of work and am in a sense simply working off that one piece of material which seems very on point I would like to be more informed about how he is so off base in your opinion and contrast that with what is on base :)
Try reading a little bit about real Dzogchen, then you will know by yourself. It is worth the effort.

/magnus
heart I am trying to and I earnest mean that. I am impressed by some of the breadth of those teachings though I have to admit it is like learning a new Buddhist language. Almost reminds me of when I first came in contact with Buddhism and thought to myself "This is insane".

You have to learn the language and start understanding the framework and I am trying to do that in this case in an honest fashion.

I no allegiance to this teacher, I simply posted a quote that I think appears on point, maybe in the context of his broader teachings it isn't and that is fine.

However no one here yet has offer a substantive rebuttal or where he is off base in his teachings, etc.

Simply slandering a man or a perspective isn't something I have come to respect all that much. Substance and quality I do respect as it improves everyone and corrects misunderstandings and confusion.

Something everyone practicing in a Mahayana and or Tantric framework should be doing, since that is part of all our bodhisattva vows.

Anyway I am honestly looking forward to being corrected and shown more info, it is after all why I posted this. :anjali:
Nobody here will try to convince you, I am afraid you have to do that job by yourself. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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CedarTree
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

justsit wrote:You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us.

Vasana offered excellent advice: "You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation."

Read those things and you will be able to see for yourself where Jackson Peterson is off base.
Thanks justsit, (As a soto zenie I like the username hah).

I think I will check out Namkhai Norbu, he seems widely respected by a lot of people in the know.

Obviously this individual has some conflict surrounding him in the community. I tried figuring out what it is about and as I looked deeper it seems he refutes and or dismisses a lot of the teachings within that vehicle. So I can see why within that scene many are on "instant attack mode".

Still kind of bothers me though how some presented themselves. One line zingers seem a little off place for those on the path.

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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

ChNN's "Intro to Dzogchen" video I saw somewhere or other was the first Dzogchen anything I attempted to wrap my head around, and it ended up being the most clear presentation of..anything i've heard really. Of course everyone is different, but for me it was quite powerful and really presented what Dzogchen is in a way I could relate to my own impulses and predilections, rather than simply abstractions. I read Crystal and The Way of Light by Rinpoche, and that cinched it. I am late to the party too:(

Prior to that I had tried reading introductory, unrestricted books, but without at least having a small taste of the experiential end, it was like trying to read books on particle physics. I can go back to those books now and they make a little sense sometimes.

With the online zingers..I think people just get tired of seeing the same misrepresentations over and over again, and get jaded...I wouldn't think about it too much one way or the other.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Strive »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:ChNN's "Intro to Dzogchen" video I saw somewhere or other was the first Dzogchen anything I attempted to wrap my head around, and it ended up being the most clear presentation of..anything i've heard really. Of course everyone is different, but for me it was quite powerful and really presented what Dzogchen is in a way I could relate to my own impulses and predilections, rather than simply abstractions. I read Crystal and The Way of Light by Rinpoche, and that cinched it. I am late to the party too:(

Prior to that I had tried reading introductory, unrestricted books, but without at least having a small taste of the experiential end, it was like trying to read books on particle physics. I can go back to those books now and they make a little sense sometimes.

With the online zingers..I think people just get tired of seeing the same misrepresentations over and over again, and get jaded...I wouldn't think about it too much one way or the other.
have u had the experiental taste of dzogchen and how does that feel like?
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Punya »

However no one here yet has offer a substantive rebuttal or where he is off base in his teachings, etc.
The advice from JustSit is good:
You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us. 
Also, If you hang around here long enough you will get to know which members are likely to give you good advice or not, without asking for chapter and verse.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:ChNN's "Intro to Dzogchen" video I saw somewhere or other was the first Dzogchen anything I attempted to wrap my head around, and it ended up being the most clear presentation of..anything i've heard really. Of course everyone is different, but for me it was quite powerful and really presented what Dzogchen is in a way I could relate to my own impulses and predilections, rather than simply abstractions. I read Crystal and The Way of Light by Rinpoche, and that cinched it. I am late to the party too:(

Prior to that I had tried reading introductory, unrestricted books, but without at least having a small taste of the experiential end, it was like trying to read books on particle physics. I can go back to those books now and they make a little sense sometimes.

With the online zingers..I think people just get tired of seeing the same misrepresentations over and over again, and get jaded...I wouldn't think about it too much one way or the other.
I'll have to check out both those references :) thanks Johnny. I think your point about being jaded is very true and my bad for getting a bit up in arms about that. Just seemed a really weak way to go about things. But as someone practicing in Zen were we have every new age vapid teacher "presenting dharma" I can understand were that anger and inflammation comes from.

Maybe a good lesson for me on how to react when people bring something that I think is off base.

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CedarTree
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by CedarTree »

Punya wrote:
However no one here yet has offer a substantive rebuttal or where he is off base in his teachings, etc.
The advice from JustSit is good:
You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us. 
Also, If you hang around here long enough you will get to know which members are likely to give you good advice or not, without asking for chapter and verse.
Very true, it was well said.

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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by hawayana gonzalez »

justsit wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:28 pm You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us.

Vasana offered excellent advice: "You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation."

Read those things and you will be able to see for yourself where Jackson Peterson is off base.

Excuse to me if I relive an old thread , but I also tremble with fear, recently I spoke with a Dzogchen practitioner who uses to J. Peterson as a master reference, indicating that my belief in rebirth, Sidpa and Chonyid bardos are mere superstitions harmful to me , and the tantras ,like The Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra, are just pun intended.. :quoteunquote:
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

hawayana gonzalez wrote: Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:21 pm
justsit wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:28 pm You'll do better learning the language from the masters, rather than getting refutations from us.

Vasana offered excellent advice: "You might also want to read what you can from Namkhai Norbu, the late Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche and his sons who give a very clear and lucid explanation."

Read those things and you will be able to see for yourself where Jackson Peterson is off base.

Excuse to me if I relive an old thread , but I also tremble with fear, recently I spoke with a Dzogchen practitioner who uses to J. Peterson as a master reference, indicating that my belief in rebirth, Sidpa and Chonyid bardos are mere superstitions harmful to me , and the tantras ,like The Realms and Transformations of Sound Tantra, are just pun intended.. :quoteunquote:
J. Peterson seems to be viewed as an authority on Dzogchen only by people who don't know any better, frankly. I would not take any admonition coming from his students seriously, if I were you.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by Norwegian »

This is an image of the lichen Xanthoria parietina:
Image
This particular lichen is a bigger authority on Dzogchen, than J.Peterson.

So, please be at ease (with the teachings of qualified masters, and of the tantras and their commentaries), because J.Peterson's statements on Dzogchen comes not from a basis of knowledge and wisdom, but from sheer unadulterated ignorance. That's all there is.
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Re: Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Zen

Post by PuerAzaelis »

CedarTree wrote: Sat Jul 15, 2017 10:34 pm One line zingers seem a little off place for those on the path.
Lol. Pronouncing that someone else’s practice is wrong because just because is the path.
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