Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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TRC
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Re: Very sad news

Post by TRC »

Grigoris wrote:
TRC wrote:And we know that Sogyal gives more than just Dharma teachings.
He may give out turd sandwhiches at the end of each teaching, I am under no obligation to accept them. Like I said, a bit of common sense goes a looooooong way.
Yep, common sense is a good thing indeed. A good example of it would be keeping right away (edit: or make a clean break if you have the capacity to). That's how I applied my common sense. In hindsight, looks like it was a good call.

That's how I would urge others to apply it too.
Last edited by TRC on Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
michaelb
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Re: Very sad news

Post by michaelb »

I understand people's reluctance to comment on this issue and can also see how criticising a teacher like Sogyal can be strangley compelling and satisfying in some way.

If ex-students shouldn't openly criticise a teacher because of samaya and non-students shouldn't because it's gossip, it's no wonder that abusive teachers get away with it for so long.

Maybe the traditional model of checking the teacher is useful if we share our 'research' once we have made a decision. For my part, I've attended one teaching by Sogyal Rinpoche. He was sitting on a stage at a desk reading a talk from loose a4 paper. I found the whole thing a bit weird. I've never attended a teaching which is just someone reading a speech. I thought the talk was boring, his delivery was flat and his attitude was arrogant and condescending; arrogantly correcting his French translator a few times. I thought he was a bit of an arse.

I liked his book when i read it years ago, have attended Rigpa centres when other lamas have taught, ordered texts and commentaries from Rigpa and know some of my teachers have attended Rigpa events, met Sogyal Rinpoche and taught at his centres. There was just nothing at all about him I found in any way impressive. I got a bad feeling about him and would never recommend him as a teacher.

I could share other research where I found the lama wasn't really that good, if you like.
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Grigoris »

Ayu wrote:edit: Statement wrong..
Whoa there! Now you're implying he took advantage of minors and people not mentally fit to give consent... Careful now...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Grigoris
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Grigoris »

Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Adamantine
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Adamantine »

Well, Rigpa may be one of the most famous and widespread TB institutions in the world today. This may not be the case tomorrow. Everything is impermanent. Fortunately if anyone is eager for teachings in the Nyingma and Dzogchen lineage there are quite a number of alternatives without controversy surrounding them. They may be a bit harder to find(as in, not the #1 google search result). All teachers should be well examined though, as mentioned in Words of My Perfect Teacher. Even when that text was written over a century ago there were plenty of harmful teachers or charlatans running rampant in old Tibet, or there wouldn't be two pages dedicated to categorizing them. The four main mentioned are: Teachers like a millstone made of wood. Teachers like the frog that lived in a well. Mad guides. Blind guides. you can refer to the text for the elaborate descriptions of each. That said, one can never judge another's realization, so it is up to us to carefully choose a guide who has the qualities referred to in the texts as being like inevitable side-effects of realization and bodhicitta. That's like inferring there is fire from the smoke. Aside from that, it's good to also recall that someone who is not our teacher—an angry homeless drunk on the street for instance—can be highly realized: and there are many accounts of unseemly characters like this dissolving into full rainbow body.

All that said, to echo Michaelb with a personal note: I have benefited from The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying when I was young and first entering the Dharma, as have friends and family. Despite that, I never felt compelled to connect with Sogyal R. or attend any teachings with him, as I just did not feel that intuitive connection..partly also because I heard some recorded talks that did not inspire me the way my own Gurus have with their teachings. But the prior lawsuits and scandals were also enough to ensure I kept my distance. So aside from that I have no personal experience or basis to comment on any of this.. other than to post the quotes from HHDL and WOMPT. :anjali:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Tongnyid Dorje
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Tongnyid Dorje »

michaelb wrote: Maybe the traditional model of checking the teacher is useful if we share our 'research' once we have made a decision.
but how we chceck? you have to participate on some event, that means, you will recieve teachings already, if no also initiation... :shrug:
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Between followers there are not only adults and sane people.
There is a big difference between seeing a situation like this from afar without any direct connection and being an in-person participant where you see apparent abuse and feel morally compelled to intervene. Presumably everyone here is not an immediate participant, so the discussion here should be able to proceed with some detachment.

Personally if I were put into a position where I had samaya with a teacher and saw them apparently exploiting someone I would be in a moral quandary. I hope I'm never in that situation, but if I am I'd have to see what the specific particulars were. I'm not going to take a resolute stand one way or the other about it in advance. I tend towards the orthodox, but contrary to reputation I'm not fanatically orthodox.

Although I've been in an environment where a well respected teacher has been accused of misconduct, it was not a situation where I personally had to take action. In that case the process proceeded without any decision making needed on my part. Thus even in that case where I was physically present I was able to weather the lama-drama storm with a modicum of detachment.

Much is made here at DW about what adaptations Vajrayana will make in coming to the West. Some of those things are going to be worked out by people trying, failing, succeeding, and then teaching. And as I've point out earlier some other changes will come from the society at large through economic and legal realities. Personally I believe and predict that indentured servitude isn't going to work here, and teacher/student boundaries will be drawn. Discussion such as are happening here on DW will neither contribute to or inhibit those developments imposed by courts and finance (imho).
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
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Re: Very sad news

Post by pemachophel »

"but how we chceck? you have to participate on some event, that means, you will recieve teachings already, if no also initiation... :shrug:"

Good point. This speaks to the continually degenerating situation of the Dharma in this dark age. These days, the only time many students get to be with a Teacher is when They are teaching. In old Tibet (and in many cases in India, Nepal, Sikkim, and Bhutan today), students could watch the Teacher as They went through Their daily activities. They could ask around about a Teacher, especially from others who had had close personal experience. The fact that these days, all too often, one's first exposure to a Teacher is an empowerment is, IMO, not good. It's not good for the Teacher, for the student, or for the Dharma.

I have said it before on DW and I will say it again: Best to find a Teacher with Whom you can develop a close personal, on-going relationship in which there is the possibility of really examining and even testing the Teacher before making an irrevocable commitment. When people say that these days that's not possible, wrong. It is possible. However, it may take lots and lots of energy (of all types, including monetary), bravery, intelligence, perseverance, renunciation, and maybe even real hardship. There are plenty of good Teachers out there with Whom one could forge such a relationship if one has the will. These are not the top-tier, world-famous, "multi-national" Teachers. They are the beypai naljor, the hidden yogis -- although some of Them may be hiding in plain sight. They are Teachers Who actually live with Their students for months at a time (if not all the time). However, to find and be with such a Teacher, you are probably going to have to "give up your homeland."
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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu »

Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !

thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good :twothumbsup:
MalaBeads
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Re: Very sad news

Post by MalaBeads »

pemachophel wrote:The fact that these days, all too often, one's first exposure to a Teacher is an empowerment is, IMO, not good. It's not good for the Teacher, for the student, or for the Dharma.
Certainly this was my experience. And it isn't only "these days" but was true in the very early days of "dharma-in-the-west". At that time the only way to see a teacher at all was to attend an empowerment. And Magnus is correct, sogyal
Rinpche never give any empowerment at all then. He said (at the time), "I take very good care of myself".

Someone else said here, "they know, they know". I couldn't agree more. They are the ones who know. They understand (and understood then) the implications of all these things. We do not and have had to learn basically the hard way. So be it. That too is our karma. (I will never ever forget hearing Garchen Rinpoche say "everything that happens to you is your karma")

Anyway...I don't even know why I am responding to this post but I am....perhaps I just needed to say that.
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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa »

pemachophel wrote:There are plenty of good Teachers out there with Whom one could forge such a relationship if one has the will. These are not the top-tier, world-famous, "multi-national" Teachers. They are the beypai naljor, the hidden yogis -- although some of Them may be hiding in plain sight.
I think there are even some in California. :smile:



Khenpo Ngachung's commentary on the "Examining the Teacher" section of WoMPT begins as follows:
Examine the teacher from a distance by what you hear said about him, from close up by what you can see for yourself, and by such means as divination and mirror gazing.
I think discussions such as these could fall under the category of "what you hear said about him", so perhaps they should not be discouraged.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very sad news

Post by kirtu »

Grigoris wrote:
Ayu wrote:edit: Statement wrong.
Whoa there! Now you're implying he took advantage of minors and people not mentally fit to give consent... Careful now...
There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
liuzg150181
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Re: Very sad news

Post by liuzg150181 »

Have been following this discussion thread since its inception, my terse PoV is as such:

Only logical solution is for the affected students to file lawsuit(criminal/civil),like what Malcolm had suggested earlier(if I didn't read his stance wrongly).

If rumours and letters could change Sogyal Rinpoche one way or another, it should have happened a lot earlier, so I doubt the letter would do anything.

And no matter how entrenched one is discussing here, it does nader to the issue too.
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Re: Very sad news

Post by kirtu »

Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
Are people (ironically in this case, a psychiatrist/psychotherapist) unaware of the term enabler?

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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conebeckham
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Re: Very sad news

Post by conebeckham »

Minobu wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !

thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good :twothumbsup:
Whether or not it is factual, true, objective......it becomes "gossip" when it is discussed by third parties with little or no interest in the matter, frankly.

I am not condoning any behavior, to be clear. I have very limited connection with Rigpa and SR, and have my own opinions, but we should assess our own involvement in this situation, and our own moral outrage, our own desire to be the "Dharma Cops," and sometimes even our rush to judgement or our ability to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." There have been instances of people who suffered harm and have discarded an entire tradition. I am sure Greg is not "sucking up" to anyone in the context of this thread. "Trust the Teachings, not the Teacher" is an oft-repeated dictum, isn't it? One thing I will note, for the record, is that SR gave, apparently, few empowerments himself. He sponsored and organized other lamas to bestow empowerments. It seems to me that this was, retrospectively, skillful and fortuitous for his students, or for many of them, at least. None of this should be construed as lessening the effects of his actions, or excusing any harm.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Very sad news

Post by kirtu »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Khenpo Ngachung's commentary on the "Examining the Teacher" section of WoMPT begins as follows:
Examine the teacher from a distance by what you hear said about him, from close up by what you can see for yourself, and by such means as divination and mirror gazing.
People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa »

kirtu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Khenpo Ngachung's commentary on the "Examining the Teacher" section of WoMPT begins as follows:
Examine the teacher from a distance by what you hear said about him, from close up by what you can see for yourself, and by such means as divination and mirror gazing.
People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.

Kirt
Well, I wasn't trying to emphasize that point. Probably he was thinking of an outer-inner-secret kind of thing. There are, however, lamas available who can perform such divinations on one's behalf, aren't there?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Khenpo Ngachung's commentary on the "Examining the Teacher" section of WoMPT begins as follows:
Examine the teacher from a distance by what you hear said about him, from close up by what you can see for yourself, and by such means as divination and mirror gazing.
People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.

Kirt
.

In Hinayana people are not supposed to resort divination, etc. Secret Mantra is different.
emaho
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Re: Very sad news

Post by emaho »

_R_ wrote:
emaho wrote:
Possible, yes, but the problem with this is: how can you check a guru, if nobody says the truth about him? Isn't it funny that most of the times the people who are accusing the students of not having checked the guru are the same people who forbid them to say the truth?

I would say, test him. Give slight insults or whatever, and see how he responds to that. For example, if the Guru is verbally blunt and says he does it because he is straightforward, try the same behaviour on him and see how he reacts to that. If he is okay with it, he really is brutally honest, otherwise - egomaniac.

"Guru drinks bourbon?" book has a lot of useful tricks to use.
Yes, of course, you're right. I put it wrong. It's not the only way.

But it's one of the most important ways to check the guru. For most of us it's difficult enough to spend even a little bit of time with the guru in person. And, sadly, most of the times the only way to "get to know" the teacher is to take teachings and possibly initiations from him. I think in an organisation as big as Rigpa a lot of people have been Sogyal's students for years without even speaking to him in person. (For me that alone would be a reason not to go there.) If nobody says the truth about the teacher, and the ones close to him are even lying, it can be very misleading and can mean that you waste precious time.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen
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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu »

conebeckham wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !

thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good :twothumbsup:
Whether or not it is factual, true, objective......it becomes "gossip" when it is discussed by third parties with little or no interest in the matter, frankly.

I am not condoning any behavior, to be clear. I have very limited connection with Rigpa and SR, and have my own opinions, but we should assess our own involvement in this situation, and our own moral outrage, our own desire to be the "Dharma Cops," and sometimes even our rush to judgement or our ability to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." There have been instances of people who suffered harm and have discarded an entire tradition. I am sure Greg is not "sucking up" to anyone in the context of this thread. "Trust the Teachings, not the Teacher" is an oft-repeated dictum, isn't it? One thing I will note, for the record, is that SR gave, apparently, few empowerments himself. He sponsored and organized other lamas to bestow empowerments. It seems to me that this was, retrospectively, skillful and fortuitous for his students, or for many of them, at least. None of this should be construed as lessening the effects of his actions, or excusing any harm.
As a person who has gone through so much bullshit in various religious organizations, Buddhist, Catholic,new age nightmare,any outrage is not gossip.
there was a time due to it happening in buddhist schools i left totally for a period and tried to fit Christian paradigms into those vacant peg holes...a total nightmare ......
but i did come to the conclusion that men like power over people and enjoy wealth and all that comes with it in the name of religion.
Not the Buddha's way at all....any hint of it sends shockwaves through my being...

is soygal life filled with just a hint of gross indecency?

I think the magnitude of tes world wide scope this has, the amount of students coming forth , the heartfelt letter by soygal , and just the magnitude of people and years this has been said to be going on is enough for people like myself to comment. Gossip is actually not something that was on my radar till greg here brought it up and showed us what we all are.

for some, to lessen this to gossip is protective , or as i say greg is doing the enlightened thing like so much greg tells us is factual and all the dissertations greg does online here that we all learn from. thank you greg for your wisdom and cutting to the quick. you have chosen your words and timed them well greg./
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