Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations
Re: Very sad news
ok i leave this train wreck where it belongs....
nothing for me to do but pray for this sentient being who hopefully can prove without a shadow of doubt he is innocent.
nothing for me to do but pray for this sentient being who hopefully can prove without a shadow of doubt he is innocent.
Re: Very sad news
I am not speaking from a Hinayana perspective at all (ironically divination is rife in Asian Theravada).Malcolm wrote:.kirtu wrote:People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.dzogchungpa wrote:
Khenpo Ngachung's commentary on the "Examining the Teacher" section of WoMPT begins as follows:
Kirt
In Hinayana people are not supposed to resort divination, etc. Secret Mantra is different.
Malcolm - you know perfectly well that there is no emphasis or encouragement at all in doing divination in Vajrayana by students. And few lamas I know encourage it at all. Different students are in fact treated differently on this by the same lamas btw.
At any rate a Vajrayana students is not supposed to do Mo until, what, they have finished a long Manjushri retreat? Yes, of course Mipham and probably Kongtrul wrote about divination (Mipham in detail). These are generally not taught to students. And mirror divination? That is not a common practice at all amoungst students (or western monks). Even mala divination is not taught, at least not openly.
Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Very sad news
Different teachers teach different things according to the needs and capacities of their students.kirtu wrote:I am not speaking from a Hinayana perspective at all (ironically divination is rife in Asian Theravada).Malcolm wrote:.kirtu wrote:
People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.
Kirt
In Hinayana people are not supposed to resort divination, etc. Secret Mantra is different.
Malcolm - you know perfectly well that there is no emphasis or encouragement at all in doing divination in Vajrayana by students. And few lamas I know encourage it at all. Different students are in fact treated differently on this by the same lamas btw.
At any rate a Vajrayana students is not supposed to do Mo until, what, they have finished a long Manjushri retreat? Yes, of course Mipham and probably Kongtrul wrote about divination (Mipham in detail). These are generally not taught to students.
Kirt
And there are different kinds of divination practices. It's not just connected to Manjushri.
Re: Very sad news
Of course. And most of those not connected to Manjushri are really esoteric and locked away.Norwegian wrote: And there are different kinds of divination practices. It's not just connected to Manjushri.
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Very sad news
Not at all.kirtu wrote:Of course. And most of those not connected to Manjushri are really esoteric and locked away.Norwegian wrote: And there are different kinds of divination practices. It's not just connected to Manjushri.
Kirt
Re: Very sad news
kirtu wrote:I am not speaking from a Hinayana perspective at all (ironically divination is rife in Asian Theravada).Malcolm wrote:.kirtu wrote:
People are not supposed to perform divination at all. And in the West there is very little opportunity to avail oneself of Tibetan (or other) practices such as mirror gazing. And we cannot expect people just coming to the Dharma to do so anyway.
Kirt
In Hinayana people are not supposed to resort divination, etc. Secret Mantra is different.
Malcolm - you know perfectly well that there is no emphasis or encouragement at all in doing divination in Vajrayana by students. And few lamas I know encourage it at all. Different students are in fact treated differently on this by the same lamas btw.
At any rate a Vajrayana students is not supposed to do Mo until, what, they have finished a long Manjushri retreat? Yes, of course Mipham and probably Kongtrul wrote about divination (Mipham in detail). These are generally not taught to students. And mirror divination? That is not a common practice at all amoungst students (or western monks). Even mala divination is not taught, at least not openly.
Kirt
This is just not my experience, kirt. For example Longsal Yudron ma dice divination is given by ChNN all the time, and there are many other mo systems ordinary Tibetans use all the time like mala mos, etc.
But this off topic.
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5694
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Very sad news
I am sorry you've suffered from so-called "religious organizations." And I absolutely agree that many men like power, wealth, etc. and that there is no doubt much corruption in religious institutions--in all institutions. Human nature being what it is, Samsara being what it is, I expect....Minobu wrote:As a person who has gone through so much bullshit in various religious organizations, Buddhist, Catholic,new age nightmare,any outrage is not gossip.conebeckham wrote:Whether or not it is factual, true, objective......it becomes "gossip" when it is discussed by third parties with little or no interest in the matter, frankly.Minobu wrote: so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !
thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good
I am not condoning any behavior, to be clear. I have very limited connection with Rigpa and SR, and have my own opinions, but we should assess our own involvement in this situation, and our own moral outrage, our own desire to be the "Dharma Cops," and sometimes even our rush to judgement or our ability to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." There have been instances of people who suffered harm and have discarded an entire tradition. I am sure Greg is not "sucking up" to anyone in the context of this thread. "Trust the Teachings, not the Teacher" is an oft-repeated dictum, isn't it? One thing I will note, for the record, is that SR gave, apparently, few empowerments himself. He sponsored and organized other lamas to bestow empowerments. It seems to me that this was, retrospectively, skillful and fortuitous for his students, or for many of them, at least. None of this should be construed as lessening the effects of his actions, or excusing any harm.
there was a time due to it happening in buddhist schools i left totally for a period and tried to fit Christian paradigms into those vacant peg holes...a total nightmare ......
but i did come to the conclusion that men like power over people and enjoy wealth and all that comes with it in the name of religion.
Not the Buddha's way at all....any hint of it sends shockwaves through my being...
is soygal life filled with just a hint of gross indecency?
I think the magnitude of tes world wide scope this has, the amount of students coming forth , the heartfelt letter by soygal , and just the magnitude of people and years this has been said to be going on is enough for people like myself to comment. Gossip is actually not something that was on my radar till greg here brought it up and showed us what we all are.
for some, to lessen this to gossip is protective , or as i say greg is doing the enlightened thing like so much greg tells us is factual and all the dissertations greg does online here that we all learn from. thank you greg for your wisdom and cutting to the quick. you have chosen your words and timed them well greg./
It is a most difficult thing to rise above the suffering and mental anguish caused by these issues. I do not fault the writers of the letter at all, and as I said I appreciate their action. I think it is consistent with HHDL's advice, as well. But for most of us, here on DW, my feeling is that it is more productive use of our time to check ourselves, and out motivations, than to spend a great deal of energy talking about something outside of our immediate sphere of influence. We ourselves choose how we participate, and every step is a decision. I wish you well, and I wish everyone involved or affected by any of this nothing but goodness.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Very sad news
That is what internet forums like this is for. Coming onto Dharmawheel people can read about dodgy groups to avoid - NKT, Tsem, Sogyal, etc. Because we don't have access to the Tibetan grapevine, we need our own. People may think such chatter has no effect but it does. I know first hand that talking about dodgy groups keeps people away from getting harmed by dodgy groups. It does not stop the group but it does prevent people from falling into them, one person at a time.pemachophel wrote:"but how we chceck? you have to participate on some event, that means, you will recieve teachings already, if no also initiation... "
Good point. This speaks to the continually degenerating situation of the Dharma in this dark age. These days, the only time many students get to be with a Teacher is when They are teaching. In old Tibet (and in many cases in India, Nepal, Sikkim, and Bhutan today), students could watch the Teacher as They went through Their daily activities. They could ask around about a Teacher, especially from others who had had close personal experience.
Re: Very sad news
Very well said.conebeckham wrote:I am sorry you've suffered from so-called "religious organizations." And I absolutely agree that many men like power, wealth, etc. and that there is no doubt much corruption in religious institutions--in all institutions. Human nature being what it is, Samsara being what it is, I expect....Minobu wrote:As a person who has gone through so much bullshit in various religious organizations, Buddhist, Catholic,new age nightmare,any outrage is not gossip.conebeckham wrote:
Whether or not it is factual, true, objective......it becomes "gossip" when it is discussed by third parties with little or no interest in the matter, frankly.
I am not condoning any behavior, to be clear. I have very limited connection with Rigpa and SR, and have my own opinions, but we should assess our own involvement in this situation, and our own moral outrage, our own desire to be the "Dharma Cops," and sometimes even our rush to judgement or our ability to "throw the baby out with the bathwater." There have been instances of people who suffered harm and have discarded an entire tradition. I am sure Greg is not "sucking up" to anyone in the context of this thread. "Trust the Teachings, not the Teacher" is an oft-repeated dictum, isn't it? One thing I will note, for the record, is that SR gave, apparently, few empowerments himself. He sponsored and organized other lamas to bestow empowerments. It seems to me that this was, retrospectively, skillful and fortuitous for his students, or for many of them, at least. None of this should be construed as lessening the effects of his actions, or excusing any harm.
there was a time due to it happening in buddhist schools i left totally for a period and tried to fit Christian paradigms into those vacant peg holes...a total nightmare ......
but i did come to the conclusion that men like power over people and enjoy wealth and all that comes with it in the name of religion.
Not the Buddha's way at all....any hint of it sends shockwaves through my being...
is soygal life filled with just a hint of gross indecency?
I think the magnitude of tes world wide scope this has, the amount of students coming forth , the heartfelt letter by soygal , and just the magnitude of people and years this has been said to be going on is enough for people like myself to comment. Gossip is actually not something that was on my radar till greg here brought it up and showed us what we all are.
for some, to lessen this to gossip is protective , or as i say greg is doing the enlightened thing like so much greg tells us is factual and all the dissertations greg does online here that we all learn from. thank you greg for your wisdom and cutting to the quick. you have chosen your words and timed them well greg./
It is a most difficult thing to rise above the suffering and mental anguish caused by these issues. I do not fault the writers of the letter at all, and as I said I appreciate their action. I think it is consistent with HHDL's advice, as well. But for most of us, here on DW, my feeling is that it is more productive use of our time to check ourselves, and out motivations, than to spend a great deal of energy talking about something outside of our immediate sphere of influence. We ourselves choose how we participate, and every step is a decision. I wish you well, and I wish everyone involved or affected by any of this nothing but goodness.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Very sad news
so-called "religious organizations"conebeckham wrote: I am sorry you've suffered from so-called "religious organizations." And I absolutely agree that many men like power, wealth, etc. and that there is no doubt much corruption in religious institutions--in all institutions. Human nature being what it is, Samsara being what it is, I expect....
It is a most difficult thing to rise above the suffering and mental anguish caused by these issues. I do not fault the writers of the letter at all, and as I said I appreciate their action. I think it is consistent with HHDL's advice, as well. But for most of us, here on DW, my feeling is that it is more productive use of our time to check ourselves, and out motivations, than to spend a great deal of energy talking about something outside of our immediate sphere of influence. We ourselves choose how we participate, and every step is a decision. I wish you well, and I wish everyone involved or affected by any of this nothing but goodness.
what are you implying by the use of so- called?
why is there so much deflection going on in this thread, along with diatribes unrelated and off topic ...
When stuff like this happens , whilst we are practicing Buddhist Dharma ,it should be explored on every level both personal and public.
it's all a learning experience and when a fraud has been committed to this extent brushing it under the rug is the worse case scenario.
i say fraud for if it comes to past that all the persons who came forward are telling the truth...this soygal guy is none other than fraudulent wolf with credentials from the highest authorities who are supposed to be in the know, what goes on .
people are talking about the MO ! the Mo !
i mean wow don't you think that vast people knew this all along. do they need the MO ?
thank you bob dylan for those words of wisdomYou put your eyes in your pocket and your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law against you comin' around
You should be made to wear earphones
'Cause something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
Re: Very sad news
Minobu I think various people are just highlighting different dimensions of the subject and I think that is a positive as sometimes one dimensional thinking can cause important facets to be left out and cause more harm than positive development.Minobu wrote:so-called "religious organizations"conebeckham wrote: I am sorry you've suffered from so-called "religious organizations." And I absolutely agree that many men like power, wealth, etc. and that there is no doubt much corruption in religious institutions--in all institutions. Human nature being what it is, Samsara being what it is, I expect....
It is a most difficult thing to rise above the suffering and mental anguish caused by these issues. I do not fault the writers of the letter at all, and as I said I appreciate their action. I think it is consistent with HHDL's advice, as well. But for most of us, here on DW, my feeling is that it is more productive use of our time to check ourselves, and out motivations, than to spend a great deal of energy talking about something outside of our immediate sphere of influence. We ourselves choose how we participate, and every step is a decision. I wish you well, and I wish everyone involved or affected by any of this nothing but goodness.
what are you implying by the use of so- called?
why is there so much deflection going on in this thread, along with diatribes unrelated and off topic ...
When stuff like this happens , whilst we are practicing Buddhist Dharma ,it should be explored on every level both personal and public.
it's all a learning experience and when a fraud has been committed to this extent brushing it under the rug is the worse case scenario.
i say fraud for if it comes to past that all the persons who came forward are telling the truth...this soygal guy is none other than fraudulent wolf with credentials from the highest authorities who are supposed to be in the know, what goes on .
people are talking about the MO ! the Mo !
i mean wow don't you think that vast people knew this all along. do they need the MO ?
thank you bob dylan for those words of wisdomYou put your eyes in your pocket and your nose on the ground
There ought to be a law against you comin' around
You should be made to wear earphones
'Cause something is happening and you don't know what it is
Do you, Mr. Jones?
I do not think every post in these various perspectives is meant to undermine or put aside the dimension you are approaching this subject on. It's an important dimension but it has to find it's context along side others and within a greater paradigm of understanding how to go about it in the most noble and profitable way.
Something the other perspectives have something to contribute to that discussion.
Your words and perspective are valuable
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Very sad news
I am not defending or attacking anybody. Any defence or attack that you may be seeing is a product of your own mind.Minobu wrote:so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !
thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Very sad news
I am not "enabling" anything. How is recommending taking Dharma teachings from a Dharma teacher, enabling?kirtu wrote:Are people (ironically in this case, a psychiatrist/psychotherapist) unaware of the term enabler?Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
Kirt
How is saying that people should practice common sense and discretion when it comes to the non-Dharmic activity of teachers, enabling?
I did not expect such a "black and white" (either you are with him, or against him) attitude from you, of all people.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Very sad news
true dat .Grigoris wrote:I am not defending or attacking anybody. Any defence or attack that you may be seeing is a product of your own mind.Minobu wrote:so this is all just gossip then..ah ok thanks for the incredible insight into this ...man you really are one of those people who don't wear rose colored glasses and don't want to suck up to the possibility of reward for defending a great Rinpoche..Grigoris wrote:Are people unaware of the definition of the term gossip?
man i have a whole now outlook about you..you da man !
thank you for that ...i get where you are at man....very good
but
The lesson today boys and girls is about being told certain people are Buddhas here on earth.
We are told these people are buddhas and then they go and act like ghetto punks with cash and power beyond your wildest dreams.
People think he is a Buddha , they are taught he is a Buddha.
enough of this ...
Follow the law and not the person ..
Re: Very sad news
If this story is true, then both the teacher AND the parents deserve to be in jail. Why did social services not step in? Why didn't other members of Rigpa report it? People outside Rigpa?Ayu wrote:edit: Statement wrong.kirtu wrote:There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.Grigoris wrote:Whoa there! Now you're implying he took advantage of minors and people not mentally fit to give consent... Careful now...
Kirt
Therefore, Grigoris, in your words: if the turd sandwich is offered as premium tofu food, then the follower can't be blamed for taking it out of his own free will. edit: Statement wrong.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Very sad news
Grigoris,Grigoris wrote:If this story is true, then both the teacher AND the parents deserve to be in jail. Why did social services not step in? Why didn't other members of Rigpa report it? People outside Rigpa?Ayu wrote:edit: Statement wrong.kirtu wrote:
There is at least one accusation of a young woman who was essentially offered to Sogyal by her father. The young woman was at least of legal age in her country (the Netherlands) and she may have been older. However the issue under Dutch law is likely to be the "unequal relationship" clause that recognizes differing social/power situations.
Kirt
I will preface my statement by saying I have always enjoyed your posts and actually think you add a ton to the discussion.
However in these posts I think myself and others are a bit surprised on how your approaching it.
You mentioned black and white and yet you have to know that how environments are can drastically change how people act and reason over time. To still recommend a place or teacher when information like this is being discussed is in a sense taking a type of black and white mentality.
I know where you are coming from and I think in a lot of ways I agree with the points you are making but in another way I think for myself and others that seemed like someone not really using the full scope of their intelligence and understanding. You are a wise person. I can attest to how sharp you are.
I think as these discussions are continuing the common sense and reasoned approach would be to recommend that prospective students look else where until things are sorted and the full picture comes out.
To suggest people potentially go into an environment that can cause them harm and prey on something as vulnerable and sacred as someones spirituality and pursuit of purity of heart isn't informed with wisdom. The warning of "use your rationality and don't take the bait on this, that, and the other" is just not really defensible nor I think something that is profitable for the community.
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: Very sad news
This, on the other hand, is a clear example of enabling.edit: Statement wrong.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
- tomschwarz
- Posts: 778
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:31 am
Another one bites the dust
Hello dear friends from beginningless time,
https://www.lionsroar.com/letter-to-sog ... legations/
...i have always known this, that Sogyal Rinpoche both carries a great deal of wisdom as well being arrogant and aggressive. So no surprise here. Long since accepted this, enter wisdom of discernment.
As you already know, i like to hold up the word "nice" to bate aggressive people into shooting it down as insincere in an effort to call a spade a spade. In other words there is only one loving kindness, it is both loving and kind.
But, i would like to hear from others, perhaps from the "keep it real' above all else, rocknroll camp, or the honor the words of your perfect teacher even if the accompanying actions are less than perfect, is it, in this case, OK or even good/skillfull that Sogyal Rinpoche is aggressive and or arrogant? Or have i got it all wrong and i must let go of this "be a nice person"-as-foundational-on-the-path-to-elightenment mantra in favor of the "steel boot of the real world"-everything-is-already perfect-including-me mantra?
https://www.lionsroar.com/letter-to-sog ... legations/
...i have always known this, that Sogyal Rinpoche both carries a great deal of wisdom as well being arrogant and aggressive. So no surprise here. Long since accepted this, enter wisdom of discernment.
As you already know, i like to hold up the word "nice" to bate aggressive people into shooting it down as insincere in an effort to call a spade a spade. In other words there is only one loving kindness, it is both loving and kind.
But, i would like to hear from others, perhaps from the "keep it real' above all else, rocknroll camp, or the honor the words of your perfect teacher even if the accompanying actions are less than perfect, is it, in this case, OK or even good/skillfull that Sogyal Rinpoche is aggressive and or arrogant? Or have i got it all wrong and i must let go of this "be a nice person"-as-foundational-on-the-path-to-elightenment mantra in favor of the "steel boot of the real world"-everything-is-already perfect-including-me mantra?
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
- conebeckham
- Posts: 5694
- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Very sad news
Frankly, because I think the idea of "religious" and "organization" are, to some extent, incompatible. That's one dimension of what I mean. But I also meant "so-called" because you yourself brought in "New Age" so I was just commenting in a more general way, as well.Minobu wrote:so-called "religious organizations"conebeckham wrote: I am sorry you've suffered from so-called "religious organizations." And I absolutely agree that many men like power, wealth, etc. and that there is no doubt much corruption in religious institutions--in all institutions. Human nature being what it is, Samsara being what it is, I expect....
It is a most difficult thing to rise above the suffering and mental anguish caused by these issues. I do not fault the writers of the letter at all, and as I said I appreciate their action. I think it is consistent with HHDL's advice, as well. But for most of us, here on DW, my feeling is that it is more productive use of our time to check ourselves, and out motivations, than to spend a great deal of energy talking about something outside of our immediate sphere of influence. We ourselves choose how we participate, and every step is a decision. I wish you well, and I wish everyone involved or affected by any of this nothing but goodness.
what are you implying by the use of so- called?
From my perspective, the original posting, and the fact that this thread exists, is not "brushing under the rug." However, much of what is contained in this thread is speculative, or malign, or uninformed, etc. and that's what I think happens in all such situations. It's inevitable, to a degree, but if we all take responsibility and don't hide things, but also don't over-elaborate or over-dramatise, we can allow as much of an unvarnished, "objective" picture to emerge as is possible. Again, I suppose I have to say, I am making no statement regarding what happened in this specific case regarding Sogyal Rinpoche, his students, his organization, etc. I am talking, instead, about the behavior of ourselves, as participants on a Dharma Discussion site.why is there so much deflection going on in this thread, along with diatribes unrelated and off topic ...
When stuff like this happens , whilst we are practicing Buddhist Dharma ,it should be explored on every level both personal and public.
it's all a learning experience and when a fraud has been committed to this extent brushing it under the rug is the worse case scenario.
i say fraud for if it comes to past that all the persons who came forward are telling the truth...this soygal guy is none other than fraudulent wolf with credentials from the highest authorities who are supposed to be in the know, what goes on .
people are talking about the MO ! the Mo !
i mean wow don't you think that vast people knew this all along. do they need the MO ?
It is also entirely possible, even more than likely, that "this Sogyal guy" may be a mix of both benefit and harm. I know that's going to rile some folks up, but in actuality we all perform good and bad actions, and this includes Lamas and Rinpoches, even famous ones. I cannot weigh or even see the karma, but I agree with what Malcolm has said: if there are victims, they have legal recourse. And the Rigpa Institution must address the issue and fix itself.
As for being told certain people are "Buddhas here on Earth," per your other post.... well.......honestly, we're told to view our Vajra Masters as Buddhas. We are also told, often by those same Vajra Masters, that they themselves are NOT Buddhas. It is up to you, entirely, whether to believe those who say that so-and-so is a Buddha. People say all sorts of things. A healthy amount of skepticism, and a natural curiosity combined with a dose of caution, are ESSENTIAL for would-be Vajrayana students. This should be obvious to all, by now, but I guess it bears repeating.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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- Posts: 1102
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- Location: Portugal
Re: Very sad news
I sense talking about SR will be the new taboo around here...