Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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weitsicht
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:27 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:00 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:48 pm
DJKR follows their invitation in February. He'll fly in to Berlin (and maybe other venues) just for Rigpa.
No Siddharta's Intent event planned...
I can't find anything on the internet, where when?

/magnus
You're right it's not announced on the Internet. They distribute flyers.
From memory I'd say Feb 23rd at Dharma Mati, maybe 16th.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

PeterC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:53 am

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:46 pm
I have a question on ethical behavior to you that concerns RIgpa and its remaining actors:

If you have the opportunity to participate in a teaching of a Rinpoche who follows Rigpa's invitation, hence you pay Rigpa for the tuition and play part in Rigpa's way of reciting Refuge and Dedication (inclusion Sogyal's chants from tape and a long life prayer for him) and you would have no other chance to have this teaching or see this Rinpoche otherwise, would you go or would you abstain?

I did so mid-December. The hostess's introduciton mentioned that for the unfortunate accusations to Sogyal by a very few ex-members there was no room this weekend. Big compassion overcame me when I heard the members sing Sogyal's long life prayer extra loud. They are deeply in denial mode and I am not sure whether the guests' presence like mine isn't a good confirmation for them to pursue the strategy of letting things calm down and then let Sogyal return. Hence my above quesiton.
Go if the teaching is important to you. Worst case scenario is that you sit quietly through a few prayers and don't talk to many other participants. But those other participants, even if they're in full river-in-Egypt mode, are also the abused in this situation, and dialogue can only help. And however unpleasant Sogyal's actions are, he is still a living being suffering in samsara to whom we should wish a long life so that he can perhaps do something about the extremely negative karma he's accumulated thus far.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:22 pm

:good:
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:53 am
Go if the teaching is important to you. Worst case scenario is that you sit quietly through a few prayers and don't talk to many other participants. But those other participants, even if they're in full river-in-Egypt mode, are also the abused in this situation, and dialogue can only help. And however unpleasant Sogyal's actions are, he is still a living being suffering in samsara to whom we should wish a long life so that he can perhaps do something about the extremely negative karma he's accumulated thus far.
Good points. I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison. This would be the best and most compassionate outcome for him to help ripen that huge back log of negative karma, and good for the victims of his abuse too, to see some justice done. His actions were not just "unpleasant", but criminal.

I think it would be wise to consider before attending any teachings at Rigpa, that if you attend you financially and morally support the same management team who were complicit in enabling Sogyal. Who knew about the abuse and denied it was happening and are still denying it. They are the same people who sent out the lama with the feudal attitude to the deluded faithful at Rigpa to blame the victims for Sogyal's misfortunes and his current health status.

These are decisions that one should not take lightly.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am

TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.

PeterC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:58 am

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.
If compassion is reserved only for other Mahayana practitioners then we need to do more work on arousing Bodhicitta of aspiration.

I could not agree with you more when you say:
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
...if you attend you financially and morally support the same management team who were complicit in enabling Sogyal. Who knew about the abuse and denied it was happening and are still denying it.
...and that is the difficulty here. For that reason alone I personally would not want to ever set foot in a Rigpa center or study with a lama who supports Sogyal - but that's easy for me to say because I have no connection to any lama who regularly teaches at Rigpa centers. We all know how hard it can be to receive specific teachings, so I wouldn't blame anyone who decided to enter a Rigpa center because it was the only way to receive something they needed for their practice.

Generally, though: we are fortunate that there are still many, many great lamas teaching today of absolutely unimpeachable ethical conduct. Aside from the very limited exception above it's hard to imagine why we need to associate with Dharma organizations like Rigpa.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:58 am
Generally, though: we are fortunate that there are still many, many great lamas teaching today of absolutely unimpeachable ethical conduct. Aside from the very limited exception above it's hard to imagine why we need to associate with Dharma organizations like Rigpa.
Whoa there Judge Dredd. Rigpa is not just Sogyal and his antics. There are thousands of people in Rigpa that had no idea of Sogyal's activities and joined out of a desire to learn Dharma. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:35 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:15 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:58 am
Generally, though: we are fortunate that there are still many, many great lamas teaching today of absolutely unimpeachable ethical conduct. Aside from the very limited exception above it's hard to imagine why we need to associate with Dharma organizations like Rigpa.
Whoa there Judge Dredd. Rigpa is not just Sogyal and his antics. There are thousands of people in Rigpa that had no idea of Sogyal's activities and joined out of a desire to learn Dharma. You are throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Up to everyone to decide for themselves - I am not the law.

I'm sure most of them joined out of a desire to learn the Dharma and quite a few had no involvement in the Sogyal shenanigans. Rigpa as an organization is not the same thing as the lamas who gave teachings in Rigpa centers or the students who attended them. RIgpa as an organization is a bunch of people who organize events, maintain buildings, collect fees etc etc. and it's quite likely that most of the people involved in that aspect *did* have some idea what was going on.

I generally regard Dharma organizations with a certain amount of scepticism at the best of times. But getting into that will take us way off-topic...

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
This....!!!
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.
But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by weitsicht » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm
it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
And this exactly my problem :crying: I am endorsing the existing structure to remain as it is and deny what happened when I was going there. And of course I didn't know about what I would see there before I found myself in it.

And it's big names that accept Rigpa's invitations.
How come they bring themselves into that situation, alongside guests like me ?!?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Josef » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am


Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.
But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
No, they dont.
His behavior, and his apologists behavior removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:08 pm

No it doesn't. It does mean that they are imperfect practitioners. As am I.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:11 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am

Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.
But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
No, they dont.
His behavior, and his apologists behavior removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners.
Thank you Josef. That was exactly the point.

Simon E.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:12 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm
it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
And this exactly my problem :crying: I am endorsing the existing structure to remain as it is and deny what happened when I was going there. And of course I didn't know about what I would see there before I found myself in it.

And it's big names that accept Rigpa's invitations.
How come they bring themselves into that situation, alongside guests like me ?!?
I don't think you are doing that. It's all in the open now. Checks and balances have been put in place.
Just stay vigilant.
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:18 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:18 am

Mahayana practitioners don't abuse any one either.
But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
No, they dont.
His behavior, and his apologists behavior removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners.
Removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners? What a horrible and judgmental accusation to make on not just a teacher but also their students.

Ironically a very non-Mahayana statement to make AFAIK. Good luck with your practice.

Jetsun tenzin palmo is teaching at UK Rigpa this year as well, I guess she's removed from the ranks of mahayana practitioners as well. Oh well, at least they'll be in good company.
Last edited by Sonam Wangchug on Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 am
TRC wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:06 pm
I'm saying a long-life prayer for Sogyal so he can spend a bit of that time in prison.
Mahāyāna practitioners do not pray for the incarceration of anyone.
:good:

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:31 pm

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:11 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:49 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 12:14 pm


But clearly they do or we would not be having this discussion.

The answer is not to rush to punishment. The answer is to raise the awareness of would be Dharma students. To encourage caution when approaching teachers. To take our time. To keep our eyes and ears open fully.
I am not interested in victim blaming, but it is a fact that Sogyal's reputation was widespread long before the scandals were in the public domain.
That did not help those already in the organisation where a different set of dynamics apply..but could have been a warning those thinking of joining.
No, they dont.
His behavior, and his apologists behavior removes them from the ranks of Mahayana practitioners.
Thank you Josef. That was exactly the point.
While I generally agree with Josef, on this point, I cannot agree. Papayin Māra's attempt to trick the Buddha by taking the bodhisattva vow to gain access to the Buddha's presence resulted in Papayin Māra's prediction to complete Buddhahood (Śūraṅgamasamādhi Sūtra), so it is impossible that Sogyal has been separated from the Mahāyāna gotra. You, TRC, are underestimating the tremendous merit of the bodhisattva aspiration.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm

Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour, but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.

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