Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:45 pm

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour...
It all depends on whether you have a one-lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view. If someone has faith in karma, the vipāka of sexual misconduct and so on is very clearly delineated. Wishing for someone to suffer, for any reason, is antithetical to Buddhist ethics in general, and Mahāyāna ethics specifically, since it involves abandoning one's compassion for that sentient being. One cannot in the same breath say, "I want to X to suffer in prison for their crimes" and say also, "I have compassion for X." No truly compassionate Buddhist person ever wants any sentient being to suffer for any reason.
but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.
Yes, no one ever said pṛthagjana Mahāyāna practitioners were perfect. Anyway, you will have to be satisfied with the endless humiliation of Sogyal in the press and on boards such as these since it is highly unlikely he will be successfully brought up on charges. Being satisfied with the humiliation of a sentient being is also not very Buddhist.

We can address the issues of patriarchy and sexual abuse in Buddhist organizations without indulging in afflictive behavior ourselves, or at least we can recognize the afflictions that the perceived misdeeds of others raise within ourselves.

And if you accept rebirth, do you really believe that in some past life you have not done things far more awful to women than the crimes you impute onto Sogyal? I am pretty sure we have all been perps and victims, over and over again...

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Quay
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Quay » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:45 pm
... Wishing for someone to suffer, for any reason, is antithetical to Buddhist ethics in general, and Mahāyāna ethics specifically, since it involves abandoning one's compassion for that sentient being. One cannot in the same breath say, "I want to X to suffer in prison for their crimes" and say also, "I have compassion for X." No truly compassionate Buddhist person ever wants any sentient being to suffer for any reason....
This. And this is why in Bodhicitta all means all, not just pretty much everyone except those whom in my judgement "deserve" something or other. We've all been gods and monsters and everything else, too, so there is no reason to get distractedly fixated on the actions of any one person in any one lifetime.

I think if a person accepts rebirth and meditates on it and the idea of infinity, of no beginnings, and applies that to Bodhicitta then compassion comes much more easily.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:24 pm

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour, but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.
You are just using a vague idea of justice to rationalize a desire that someone be harmed. You should apply antidotes, or whatevet your approach dictates, instead of pretending a desire for vengeance is somehow motivated by virtue. The punitive end of the criminal justice system in most countries has little to do with ' facing up to criminal behavior', whatever it's other qualities or deficiencies.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:30 pm

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:18 pm
Jetsun tenzin palmo is teaching at UK Rigpa this year as well, I guess she's removed from the ranks of mahayana practitioners as well. Oh well, at least they'll be in good company.

I guess Khenchen Namdrol is out too.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:30 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:24 pm
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour, but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.
You are just using a vague idea of justice to rationalize a desire that someone be harmed. You should apply antidotes, or whatevet your approach dictates, instead of pretending a desire for vengeance is somehow motivated by virtue. The punitive end of the criminal justice system in most countries has little to do with ' facing up to criminal behavior', whatever it's other qualities or deficiencies.
:good:

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heart
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by heart » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:45 pm
TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:32 pm
Apparently you can't be a Mahayana practitioner if you want to see the natural course of justice take place and see people face up to their criminal beahviour...
It all depends on whether you have a one-lifetime view or a multiple lifetime view. If someone has faith in karma, the vipāka of sexual misconduct and so on is very clearly delineated. Wishing for someone to suffer, for any reason, is antithetical to Buddhist ethics in general, and Mahāyāna ethics specifically, since it involves abandoning one's compassion for that sentient being. One cannot in the same breath say, "I want to X to suffer in prison for their crimes" and say also, "I have compassion for X." No truly compassionate Buddhist person ever wants any sentient being to suffer for any reason.
but you can still be a Mahayana practitioner if you sexually, physically, spiritually and emotionally abuse people.
Yes, no one ever said pṛthagjana Mahāyāna practitioners were perfect. Anyway, you will have to be satisfied with the endless humiliation of Sogyal in the press and on boards such as these since it is highly unlikely he will be successfully brought up on charges. Being satisfied with the humiliation of a sentient being is also not very Buddhist.

We can address the issues of patriarchy and sexual abuse in Buddhist organizations without indulging in afflictive behavior ourselves, or at least we can recognize the afflictions that the perceived misdeeds of others raise within ourselves.

And if you accept rebirth, do you really believe that in some past life you have not done things far more awful to women than the crimes you impute onto Sogyal? I am pretty sure we have all been perps and victims, over and over again...
:good:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:39 pm

So punishment = harm, then.

Interesting.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:39 pm
So punishment = harm, then.

Interesting.
Not necessarily, but in terms of personal view, it seems important to me to distinguish between rejoicing in things which might bring reconciliation, the righting of wrongs, corrective action etc....and those which actually do not, and tend to simply increase suffering, often creating better sociopaths and criminals. If one is going to rejoice in the bad circumstances of others, seems like a good thing to be sure about.

Just go spend time in a prison, you'll see very quickly that most of a life lived in one does not result in some examination of one's circumstances, or owning one's guilt at all. In fact, from what I've seen, the only programs within the entire prison environment that can do that are meditation programs, spiritual practice, therapies which involve reckoning with the wrongs one has done, etc. Not only are these programs too rare, but quite often the entire culture of incarceration opposes them, thinking that somehow *punishment itself* can increase insight into harms done. There is no amount of punishment that can change the denial of someone who has done something awful and won't admit it, they will create new excuses. All you need to do is hang out with prisoners a bit to see how wrong headed the view of punishment alone as corrective action is.

So, if you're going to personally celebrate someone being "brought to justice", it's worth considering what exactly you are celebrating, and what you are not.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:56 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm
Not necessarily, but in terms of personal view, it seems important to me to distinguish between rejoicing in things which might bring reconciliation, the righting of wrongs, corrective action etc....and those which do not. If one is going to rejoice in the bad circumstances of others, seems like a good thing to be sure about.
Hypothetical for you. You're on the jury. You're the deciding vote. Guilty (and a ten year sentence for rape?) or not guilty (and he walks out).
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:59 pm

Please point out where I said I wanted Sogyal to suffer.

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heart
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by heart » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:39 pm
So punishment = harm, then.

Interesting.
And if punishment = no harm, where does that leave you?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:56 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm
Not necessarily, but in terms of personal view, it seems important to me to distinguish between rejoicing in things which might bring reconciliation, the righting of wrongs, corrective action etc....and those which do not. If one is going to rejoice in the bad circumstances of others, seems like a good thing to be sure about.
Hypothetical for you. You're on the jury. You're the deciding vote. Guilty (and a ten year sentence for rape?) or not guilty (and he walks out).
Would I sentence him, yeah, of course, if the evidence warranted. I wouldn't purposefully rejoice in a prisoner facing abusive treatment, or in their suffering though... and that is what we are talking about.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm
So, if you're going to personally celebrate someone being "brought to justice", it's worth considering what exactly you are celebrating, and what you are not.
I may be missing something, but who used the idea of celebrating or rejoicing?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm
I wouldn't purposefully rejoice in a prisoner facing abusive treatment, or in their suffering though... and that is what we are talking about.
If you say so.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm
So, if you're going to personally celebrate someone being "brought to justice", it's worth considering what exactly you are celebrating, and what you are not.
I may be missing something, but who used the idea of celebrating or rejoicing?
IMO that was definitely the tone of TRC's earlier post, but like anything if he/she says that is not the case, then I will take it at face value I guess. Having spent time in prisons, I also find it laughable that anyone has the idea that most prison time can help people be more compassionate. There are some programs that do, but overall most penal systems have nothing to do with making people more compassionate...individual programs and efforts within those systems notwithstanding.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 pm

Please also point out where I said I would be rejoicing if Sogyal went to prison.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:39 pm
So punishment = harm, then.

Interesting.
And if punishment = no harm, where does that leave you?

/magnus
Plunging the toilet, occasionally. I wonder why it is important where I am left, however. When someone is plunging a toilet the location of the person using the plunger is not the issue - the location of other things is the issue.
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:52 pm
So, if you're going to personally celebrate someone being "brought to justice", it's worth considering what exactly you are celebrating, and what you are not.
I may be missing something, but who used the idea of celebrating or rejoicing?
IMO that was definitely the tone of TRC's earlier post, but like anything if he/she says that is not the case, then I will take it at face value I guess.
Definitely?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:05 pm

TRC wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:04 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:03 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:01 pm

I may be missing something, but who used the idea of celebrating or rejoicing?
IMO that was definitely the tone of TRC's earlier post, but like anything if he/she says that is not the case, then I will take it at face value I guess.
Definitely?
In my opinion sure, don't ask to qualify every little thing I say if you're complaining about the same treatment.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:08 pm

Well I'm still waiting for you to pull up the quote where I said I would be rejoicing in Sogyal's suffering if he went to prison.

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