Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm
TRC wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:57 pm
This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?

If there were some teachings I really thought I needed being given by a lama I respected at a Rigpa center than I would go without hesitation. I would also still watch a film produced by Miramax.
Well it looks like the OP that was asking for advice in attending Rigpa has now made the decision not to. S/he obviously understands the wider implications and ramifications of attending. A wise decision, based on an understanding of the ethics and morality behind all this.

There are greater things to consider other than, will I get “some teachings I really thought I needed”, it seems.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 am

TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm
TRC wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:57 pm
This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?

If there were some teachings I really thought I needed being given by a lama I respected at a Rigpa center than I would go without hesitation. I would also still watch a film produced by Miramax.
Well it looks like the OP that was asking for advice in attending Rigpa has now made the decision not to. S/he obviously understands the wider implications and ramifications of attending. A wise decision, based on an understanding of the ethics and morality behind all this.

There are greater things to consider other than, will I get “some teachings I really thought I needed”, it seems.

See, I don't really understand this sort of thinking. It appears to be assigning an approach to individual actions that is..quixotic I guess.

I mean, someone incidentally paying a few bucks out of a few hundred people or something to attend a teaching associated with Rigpa (though not taught by Sogyal himself) hardly constitutes any kind of real "support" for sexual abuse.

Where do you draw the line? There are well known Dharma centers and monasteries unaffiliated with Sogyal where he has been invited to teach over the years, or had some kind of presence.. are we now "supporting" him by going to these places too? Not everyone associate with Rigpa or Sogyal is complicit in some grand conspiracy, I don't think it makes much sense to engage in that sort of guilt by association without knowing facts on the ground at a given place.

There is this weird implication that there is no difference between passive, incidental support of something, and intentional support - there is in fact a huge difference. It appears to be something like telling Catholics they should stop being Catholic if their parish was involved in sex abuse scandals, rather than simply pushing for justice.

Abstaining from something (a teaching or Dharma center in this example) as some kind of "statement" is not the same as actually changing something either, nor does it allow one to occupy the moral high ground, by itself.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Virgo
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:11 am

TRC wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:34 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:47 pm
TRC wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:57 pm
This gets back to the original point, do you want to attend Rigpa for teachings knowing they are still denying abuse occurred?

If there were some teachings I really thought I needed being given by a lama I respected at a Rigpa center than I would go without hesitation. I would also still watch a film produced by Miramax.
Well it looks like the OP that was asking for advice in attending Rigpa has now made the decision not to. S/he obviously understands the wider implications and ramifications of attending. A wise decision, based on an understanding of the ethics and morality behind all this.

There are greater things to consider other than, will I get “some teachings I really thought I needed”, it seems.
Thats your opinion. Others have offered their opinion. In the end, it is a matter of how you look at it -- there is no definitive "right" or "wrong" action here, as far as I can see.

Kevin

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:14 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 am

Where do you draw the line? There are well known Dharma centers and monasteries unaffiliated with Sogyal where he has been invited to teach over the years, are we now "supporting" him by going to these places too?
Right, do you refrain from purchasing cable because their are some objectionable programs? Do you refrain from buying a garden hose because the store also sells poison for rodents? If you purchase a car how do you know the dealership has not purposefully sold someone a lemon, etc?

Where do you draw the line?

Kevin

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Josef » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:24 am

Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 am

Where do you draw the line? There are well known Dharma centers and monasteries unaffiliated with Sogyal where he has been invited to teach over the years, are we now "supporting" him by going to these places too?
Right, do you refrain from purchasing cable because their are some objectionable programs? Do you refrain from buying a garden hose because the store also sells poison for rodents? If you purchase a car how do you know the dealership has not purposefully sold someone a lemon, etc?

Where do you draw the line?

Kevin
The line for me is when another teacher publicly blames Sogyal's victims for the situation or casts ethnocentric or racist denigrations toward "western" students in an effort to minimize and marginalize their voice in the dharma community.
For me, personally, I will have no interaction with those lamas or their organizations. Fortunately, that list is pretty small so far.
It also seems quite reasonable and our responsibility to examine these remarks and make wise decisions about who we will receive teachings from and who we will avoid.
Teaching at a Rigpa center doesnt mean a teacher is condoning Sogyal. It could be a very skillful thing to do given the circumstances.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:31 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:24 am

The line for me is when another teacher publicly blames Sogyal's victims for the situation or casts ethnocentric or racist denigrations toward "western" students in an effort to minimize and marginalize their voice in the dharma community.
For me, personally, I will have no interaction with those lamas or their organizations. Fortunately, that list is pretty small so far.
It also seems quite reasonable and our responsibility to examine these remarks and make wise decisions about who we will receive teachings from and who we will avoid.
Teaching at a Rigpa center doesnt mean a teacher is condoning Sogyal. It could be a very skillful thing to do given the circumstances.
I dig what your saying.

Kevin

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:54 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:24 am
Virgo wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:14 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:06 am

Where do you draw the line? There are well known Dharma centers and monasteries unaffiliated with Sogyal where he has been invited to teach over the years, are we now "supporting" him by going to these places too?
Right, do you refrain from purchasing cable because their are some objectionable programs? Do you refrain from buying a garden hose because the store also sells poison for rodents? If you purchase a car how do you know the dealership has not purposefully sold someone a lemon, etc?

Where do you draw the line?

Kevin
The line for me is when another teacher publicly blames Sogyal's victims for the situation or casts ethnocentric or racist denigrations toward "western" students in an effort to minimize and marginalize their voice in the dharma community.
For me, personally, I will have no interaction with those lamas or their organizations. Fortunately, that list is pretty small so far.
It also seems quite reasonable and our responsibility to examine these remarks and make wise decisions about who we will receive teachings from and who we will avoid.
Teaching at a Rigpa center doesnt mean a teacher is condoning Sogyal. It could be a very skillful thing to do given the circumstances.
I agree there. I made the decision that I will not take teachings from..those folks. Well, it's more like now I can't even imagine wanting to.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am

Those that have been involved in the worst kind of victim blaming, IE Khenchen Namdrol, have now been placed in positions of guidance and authority within the organisation, what more reason do you need not to support them or attend Rigpa. They are denying abuse occurred and are instead blaming the victims for Sogyal's woes. Seriously, people don't get the implications of this? Perhaps I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:42 am

TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am
I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?
Good for you, you occupy the highest moral position, be proud I guess.

It really is the height of inanity to suggest that you are somehow "pure" because you refuse all contact, it is one thing to oppose teachers and authority figures who support awful stuff, quite another to act like the entire organization is somehow tainted, off limits, and beyond redemption. it is illustrative of the kind of closed-off, performative nonsense that passes for "justice" these days in some corners.

I strongly suspect here were still well-meaning decent people in Rigpa, including some who are probably still being taken advantage of by the less scrupulous, and by an institutional culture that does not support them, and does not support reform. This is probably precisely what some are facing right now in Rigpa. The idea that everyone is equally tainted is not only nonsense, IMO it shows a lack of compassion on your part, and simply a desire to appear blameless and compassionate, rather than desire to be so.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Josef » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:06 am

TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am
Those that have been involved in the worst kind of victim blaming, IE Khenchen Namdrol, have now been placed in positions of guidance and authority within the organisation, what more reason do you need not to support them or attend Rigpa.
There is no reason to support them, but there are still thousands of students who need help that are involved.
Non-rigpa affiliated teachers and practitioners would be doing everyone a disservice by abandoning them.
Sogyal, and his victim-blaming cronies are sentient bras well.
Their titles are meaningless to me but they have all been my mother countless times and will not be abandoned in that sense.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

TRC
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2013 3:23 am

Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:29 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:06 am
TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am
Those that have been involved in the worst kind of victim blaming, IE Khenchen Namdrol, have now been placed in positions of guidance and authority within the organisation, what more reason do you need not to support them or attend Rigpa.
There is no reason to support them, but there are still thousands of students who need help that are involved.
Non-rigpa affiliated teachers and practitioners would be doing everyone a disservice by abandoning them.
Sogyal, and his victim-blaming cronies are sentient bras well.
Their titles are meaningless to me but they have all been my mother countless times and will not be abandoned in that sense.
Those that are still there are obviously under the sway of the cult of Sogyal and his twisted version of the Dharma. They now risk having that further reinforced by the Spiritual Guidance team of Khenchen Namdrol and DKR. Wow, what a worry! It is indeed a sad situation, but unfortunately you can’t save people from themselves and their own decisions (karma) they need to do this for themselves.

You are obviously more optimistic about the outcome with the “non-Rigpa” teachers and what they will be able to achieve under the constraints, than me. Time will tell.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:52 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:42 am
TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am
I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?
Good for you, you occupy the highest moral position, be proud I guess.

It really is the height of inanity to suggest that you are somehow "pure" because you refuse all contact, it is one thing to oppose teachers and authority figures who support awful stuff, quite another to act like the entire organization is somehow tainted, off limits, and beyond redemption. it is illustrative of the kind of closed-off, performative nonsense that passes for "justice" these days in some corners.

I strongly suspect here were still well-meaning decent people in Rigpa, including some who are probably still being taken advantage of by the less scrupulous, and by an institutional culture that does not support them, and does not support reform. This is probably precisely what some are facing right now in Rigpa. The idea that everyone is equally tainted is not only nonsense, IMO it shows a lack of compassion on your part, and simply a desire to appear blameless and compassionate, rather than desire to be so.
You really have a propensity for misrepresenting what I say Johnny Dangerous. It's not the first time you've done this in this thread. I guess it is your modus operandi when you don't like the message, to go the ad hom. Something I've noticed for some time. Not only have you distorted the content of what I've said and gone off on a spiel with a lot of unfounded assumptions, you can't even quote me correctly. I notice you left The "perhaps" of what I said which changes the tone of what I said a quite significantly. You would have to of consciously made a decision to chop the first word of the my sentence, because I guess that would have suited you misrepresentation to make the case I'm I claim "the highest moral position" - your projection alone. And you are a moderator. Very poor form!

Here is the full quote:
Perahps I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by PeterC » Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:26 am

In the absence of new facts, feels like this thread close to running its course...

(Or new epithets. "Frogyal" is pretty good. As is the idea of a disgraced 70-year-old thinking he can negotiate something like that.)

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:25 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:26 am
In the absence of new facts, feels like this thread close to running its course...

Well, people seem to enjoy flogging a dead frog...
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:35 am

TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 2:52 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:42 am
TRC wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 1:30 am
I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?
Good for you, you occupy the highest moral position, be proud I guess.

It really is the height of inanity to suggest that you are somehow "pure" because you refuse all contact, it is one thing to oppose teachers and authority figures who support awful stuff, quite another to act like the entire organization is somehow tainted, off limits, and beyond redemption. it is illustrative of the kind of closed-off, performative nonsense that passes for "justice" these days in some corners.

I strongly suspect here were still well-meaning decent people in Rigpa, including some who are probably still being taken advantage of by the less scrupulous, and by an institutional culture that does not support them, and does not support reform. This is probably precisely what some are facing right now in Rigpa. The idea that everyone is equally tainted is not only nonsense, IMO it shows a lack of compassion on your part, and simply a desire to appear blameless and compassionate, rather than desire to be so.
You really have a propensity for misrepresenting what I say Johnny Dangerous. It's not the first time you've done this in this thread. I guess it is your modus operandi when you don't like the message, to go the ad hom. Something I've noticed for some time. Not only have you distorted the content of what I've said and gone off on a spiel with a lot of unfounded assumptions, you can't even quote me correctly. I notice you left The "perhaps" of what I said which changes the tone of what I said a quite significantly. You would have to of consciously made a decision to chop the first word of the my sentence, because I guess that would have suited you misrepresentation to make the case I'm I claim "the highest moral position" - your projection alone. And you are a moderator. Very poor form!

Here is the full quote:
Perahps I just apply a higher standard of where the Dharma comes from. I prefer my Dharma uncompromised and uncorrupted, and there are just so many places where you can get it that way, why would you even bother with a sordid rotten to the core organisation like Rigpa?
Don't try to call me out. If you have a problem with my moderation, report me. I did not intentionally do anything like you say. I find on this subject your tone self-righteous, and a bit of a performance.. but that is just your posts here, and not all of them by any means. I do not know you, and I don't assume to. If you want to have grudges towards me, that's on you, and I don't care.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:07 am

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