Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:
One ought not to use a term like "lynch" to describe criticism of an authority figure for hypocrisy and moral turpitude, particularly when you live in a not so open, not so democratic country that has actually lynched people of colour in the not-so-distant past.

In point of fact, he is being accused of far more than "hypocrisy and moral turpitude." Your have aversion to the country of your birth is irrelevant.
My aversion has nothing to do with it. He isn't being lynched, he is being confronted with his misdeeds. I suggest that you look to the dictionary to clarify your misunderstanding of the term lynch, or to your country's history for actual instances of it.
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smcj
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Re: Very sad news

Post by smcj » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:22 pm

I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
Of course you don't.

However even from the most conservative corners of Tibetan Vajrayana the validity of karmamudra practice is affirmed. You might want to investigate that a little. HHDL says that for a human to be qualified to attempt it they must have the siddhi to be able to fly. Other schools have a lower yogic standards for who can attempt it. But all schools affirm the principle of the practice as something entirely Dharmic and not a worldly activity.

Incidentally the specific opportunity for the realization that is offered by legitimate karmamudra practice is only offered one other way, and that is at the time of death. Even though he had attained a level of practice where it would have been appropriate, Lama Tsongkhapa opted to wait for death rather than do karmamudra because ordinary people like ourselves cannot imagine it as anything other than a worldly practice. He didn't dispute the validity of it, just that the optics of it were so bad that people would misunderstand.

I think he was right.
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1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:31 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
It's all about integration, man.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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justsit
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Re: Very sad news

Post by justsit » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:35 pm

Karma Dorje wrote: I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
How about we don't compound the problem by referring to women as pussy?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:No one can put obstacles in front of new Buddhists (are there any in truth?), including a bad teacher. If we make a connection with a bad teacher, that is on us. That is our karma. We learn from that experience and move on. We all have lived many lifetimes, and have done many worse things in our past lives than Sogyal's accusers allege against him. When criticizing others it is useful to maintain a multi-life perspective about oneself. And of course there is Angulimala.
What does Angulimala have to do with anything? Are you saying SR is like Angulimala? :shrug:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:41 pm

smcj wrote:
I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
Of course you don't.

However even from the most conservative corners of Tibetan Vajrayana the validity of karmamudra practice is affirmed. You might want to investigate that a little. HHDL says that for a human to be qualified to attempt it they must have the siddhi to be able to fly. Other schools have a lower yogic standards for who can attempt it. But all schools affirm the principle of the practice as something entirely Dharmic and not a worldly activity.

Incidentally the specific opportunity for the realization that is offered by legitimate karmamudra practice is only offered one other way, and that is at the time of death. Even though he had attained a level of practice where it would have been appropriate, Lama Tsongkhapa opted to wait for death rather than do karmamudra because ordinary people like ourselves cannot imagine it as anything other than a worldly practice. He didn't dispute the validity of it, just that the optics of it were so bad that people would misunderstand.

I think he was right.
So you equate chasing pussy with karmamudra? I certainly don't. Look at the actual mahasiddhas that have practiced karmamudra in recent times like Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Sakya Trizin, etc. Do you really think this is the same thing?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:47 pm

justsit wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote: I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
How about we don't compound the problem by referring to women as pussy?
That's of course a fair point but I wasn't equating women with pussy. I meant that this guy is simply objectifying and using women without consideration for their needs, desires and autonomy. We have enough of that here in the West already (which is probably why he came here in the first place, come to think of it). I put it this way specifically because it doesn't look any different to me than frat houses on vacation in Cancun.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

smcj
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Re: Very sad news

Post by smcj » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:50 pm

So you equate chasing pussy with karmamudra?
I think you didn't read my post very carefully.
https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:02 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Of course bad actions by those acting from a position of authority can pose obstacles to the faithful. If we substitute Gilbert Gauthe for Sogyal, and the Catholic sexual abuse scandals for this current 20-year long Rigpa trainwreck, would you really say "Well that's just those boys' karma"?
We are not Catholics and no one yet has accused Sogyal of pedophilia. And yes, everything is a result of karma. That does not make it "correct," however, the relationship between harmer and harmed is karmic.
Of course we have all done worse things many times over in previous lives, but that's not the point.
It is the point from which we must analyze ourselves before criticizing others.
This is not a question of policing morality but of trying to prevent further harm. The more voices raised to declare that this behaviour is unacceptable, the more chance of real reform in our Buddhist organizations.
All I can say is that this is fantasy. Complain all you want (and you will), it will do nothing to prevent any harm you perceive being inflicted by Sogyal on others. Only a criminal or civil finding will put an end to it.
That is the democratic principle in operation.
The Democratic principle is that if one person feels injured by another, they file a complaint in court and seek redress through the legal system. The accused is presumed innocent until guilt is proven.
Threads like this can help inform vulnerable students that they can and should say no to unscrupulous teachers.
Threads like this mainly serve to rouse people's afflictions, hence my description of it as Mi kha.

I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity. If Sogyal wants to do that, he at very least should not abuse the position of trust he is in to do so.
If it is just a matter of seeking sexual partners, everyone involved presumably is a consenting adult. Whether it is liberating activity or just sex is not something we actually have the capacity to perceive with our limited samsaric vision. If Sogyal was forcing his women student to have abortions after he impregnated them, for example, then this would be entirely different, of course. Therefore, this is none of our business, in absence of other information.

Physical assualt is a criminal act, either a misdemeanor or a felony depending on how severe the resulting harm. A punch in the stomach is likely a misdemeanor unless there is some damage to an organ. However, the proper forum adjudicating this is the courts, not DW. Hence my observation that Sogyal has become the OJ of Tibetan Buddhism.

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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:07 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
justsit wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote: I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
How about we don't compound the problem by referring to women as pussy?
That's of course a fair point but I wasn't equating women with pussy. I meant that this guy is simply objectifying and using women without consideration for their needs, desires and autonomy. We have enough of that here in the West already (which is probably why he came here in the first place, come to think of it). I put it this way specifically because it doesn't look any different to me than frat houses on vacation in Cancun.
Well, that is your karmic vision. Other people have different visions of Sogyal. Why is yours true and theirs false?

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Re: Very sad news

Post by Tolya M » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:07 pm

One of the Taranatha's incarnations tried to take the girl by force, because he saw another lama in the bardo going to the copulating donkeys )) I do not think that the case with SR is such. Because he would have had knowledge of other streams of consciousness and this situation would simply have not arisen. Too many fairy tales about "realization" while ignoring the scope of civil laws. It's awful to read all this and understand what kind of situation people are in.

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Re: Very sad news

Post by Pero » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:No one can put obstacles in front of new Buddhists (are there any in truth?), including a bad teacher. If we make a connection with a bad teacher, that is on us. That is our karma. We learn from that experience and move on. We all have lived many lifetimes, and have done many worse things in our past lives than Sogyal's accusers allege against him. When criticizing others it is useful to maintain a multi-life perspective about oneself. And of course there is Angulimala.
Not necessarily disagreeing with the things you've been saying but I'm not sure there are that many things one could do that are worse than using your student's trust against them.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Re: Very sad news

Post by TharpaChodron » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:39 pm

From the relative truth perspective, there sure seems to be some conflicting messages on the topic. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche talks in his book, "The Guru Drinks Bourbon," on one page warning about how fame, money, power etc. will corrupt a guru. And then, on the next pages he says that if you picked a bad teacher, it's on you and you can't judge them. He also says "it takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation."

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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:44 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:From the relative truth perspective, there sure seems to be some conflicting messages on the topic. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche talks in his book, "The Guru Drinks Bourbon," on one page warning about how fame, money, power etc. will corrupt a guru. And then, on the next pages he says that if you picked a bad teacher, it's on you and you can't judge them. He also says "it takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation."
Well, I think DJKR kind of wishes he had two mouths. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Very sad news

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:Complain all you want (and you will), it will do nothing to prevent any harm you perceive being inflicted by Sogyal on others.
This is definitely false. I can say for a fact that some people will be deterred from getting involved with him due to such complaints.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Very sad news

Post by CedarTree » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:07 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Complain all you want (and you will), it will do nothing to prevent any harm you perceive being inflicted by Sogyal on others.
This is definitely false. I can say for a fact that some people will be deterred from getting involved with him due to such complaints.
Exactly, I think many will think "This guy is not well practiced at all... He's a classic charlatan".

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Re: Very sad news

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:23 pm

smcj wrote:
However even from the most conservative corners of Tibetan Vajrayana the validity of karmamudra practice is affirmed.
Karmamudra is not one sided. In fact this is raised in De Telegraaf but it is in an article behind a paywall. However it doesn't seem likely that real karmamudra was engaged because if that were the case most of the stories concerning sexual abuse would have been different.

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Last edited by kirtu on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:38 pm

justsit wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote: I don't see how chasing pussy is anything other than a worldly activity.
How about we don't compound the problem by referring to women as pussy?
Thank you

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Re: Very sad news

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:46 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:The more voices raised to declare that this behaviour is unacceptable, the more chance of real reform in our Buddhist organizations.
Is the problem really so widespread? Seems to me to be an odd "rotten apple" here and there, but you seem to be implying that it is endemic. Is it?
Last edited by Grigoris on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:48 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Complain all you want (and you will), it will do nothing to prevent any harm you perceive being inflicted by Sogyal on others.
This is definitely false. I can say for a fact that some people will be deterred from getting involved with him due to such complaints.

And a lot people won't. In the end it is really not our business.

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