Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:The more voices raised to declare that this behaviour is unacceptable, the more chance of real reform in our Buddhist organizations.
Is the problem really so widespread? Seems to me to be odd rotten apple here and there, but you seem to be implying that it is endemic. Is it?

People like scandals. They find them enjoyable.

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Karma Dorje » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Complain all you want (and you will), it will do nothing to prevent any harm you perceive being inflicted by Sogyal on others.
This is definitely false. I can say for a fact that some people will be deterred from getting involved with him due to such complaints.

And a lot people won't. In the end it is really not our business.
You can apply that reasoning to anything. This thread for example. It's not really your business what opinion I have about anything, but it sure hasn't stopped you from commenting. Repeatedly. Ever. And hallelujah for that! It sure would be dull on the Internets if we all took that milquetoast approach.

It's our business if we make it out business. If you aren't interested, you aren't being forced to participate. But you are no doubt vested in this issue in some way or you wouldn't take time out of your day to respond. Repeatedly.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:03 pm

Malcolm wrote: If it is just a matter of seeking sexual partners, everyone involved presumably is a consenting adult.
An adult can have sex with a child of 16 in Canada as long as that person is not in a position of authority. I say this because of the knowledge that people in authority have an unfair advantage in getting sexual consent .
Whether it is liberating activity or just sex is not something we actually have the capacity to perceive with our limited samsaric vision.

Is this statement to justufy that maybe having sex with soygal can be liberating in a Buddhist sense of some sort...it's like a quick route to enlightenment...or his pure land?

I don't hear any mention of Karma Mudra from anyone who is complaining about what went on between them. and that includes not ejaculating. did he ejaculate is a question if one is going to justify his actions in a tantric sense.
If Sogyal was forcing his women student to have abortions after he impregnated them, for example, then this would be entirely different, of course. Therefore, this is none of our business, in absence of other information.
actually any abuse put out from a person in authority is everyone's buisness, especially in an organization of this size..
Physical assualt is a criminal act, either a misdemeanor or a felony depending on how severe the resulting harm. A punch in the stomach is likely a misdemeanor unless there is some damage to an organ. However, the proper forum adjudicating this is the courts, not DW
.
Please tell us you are not setting up a defence of this horrible human being who punched nuns in the stomach..please for the love of my future reading of you...
Hence my observation that Sogyal has become the OJ of Tibetan Buddhism.
you are kidding us right...that is like the worst deflection i have ever seen ..if it wasn't about some guy in authority over people in a religious setting dealing with people who would do anything to better their miserable lives...i would ...no i won't say i could lol..i can't ...

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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Karma Dorje wrote:The more voices raised to declare that this behaviour is unacceptable, the more chance of real reform in our Buddhist organizations.
Is the problem really so widespread? Seems to me to be odd rotten apple here and there, but you seem to be implying that it is endemic. Is it?

People like scandals. They find them enjoyable.
my god man...this is not about whether it is a scandal or not...
this guy was supposed to be a Dzogchen master highly evolved..read my last post...

philji
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Re: Very sad news

Post by philji » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:20 pm

I am hearing reports that the actual nun who ' was punched ' in stomach is not at all happy about thes sensationalist way it is being reported.. Trying to obtain her account, will let you know if i do.

Tiago Simões
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:33 pm

Image
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:35 pm

philji wrote:I am hearing reports that the actual nun who ' was punched ' in stomach is not at all happy about thes sensationalist way it is being reported.. Trying to obtain her account, will let you know if i do.
yeah well she probably is suffering like the others from some sort of Stockholm syndrome .

Harold Musetescu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Harold Musetescu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:37 pm

If Tilopa did to Naropa today what he did then he would be in prison for a very long time.

Was Tilopa wrong? :shrug:

Todays followers would call the police.

Naropa didn't and we all know what happened next.

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CedarTree
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Re: Very sad news

Post by CedarTree » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:40 pm

The really sad thing is that a lot of people are going to see the news about this, discussions like this and others and not want to be involved with Gurus and or teachers.

Does this mean we shouldn't talk about it of course not but we should all practice noble speech and stress repeatedly that there are excellent teachers.

I can't even imagine how horrible it would be if we didn't have teachers like Ajaan Thanissaro, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bhikkhu Analayo, Ajahn Amaro, Shōhaku Okumura Roshi, Shoryu Bradley, Mahasi Sayadaw & Sayadaw U Pandita, or Luang Por Chah!

Without these heavy weights that have been supported solely by lay people and have been able to deeply explore, draw out content, develop teaching and practices, and help guide many of us in different situations the Dhamma may be very hard in some senses to develop and or get started on.

Though these teachers are also pretty amazing examples. Usually live incredibly modestly (Some robes and a bowl) and in the Zen masters I mentioned one lives off the grid.

Practice, Practice, Practice

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:Is the problem really so widespread? Seems to me to be odd rotten apple here and there, but you seem to be implying that it is endemic. Is it?

People like scandals. They find them enjoyable.
my god man...this is not about whether it is a scandal or not...
this guy was supposed to be a Dzogchen master highly evolved..read my last post...


There is a great deal of hyperbole in Tibetan culture. Don't believe the hype.

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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:46 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

People like scandals. They find them enjoyable.
my god man...this is not about whether it is a scandal or not...
this guy was supposed to be a Dzogchen master highly evolved..read my last post...


There is a great deal of hyperbole in Tibetan culture. Don't believe the hype.
what about my Karma mudra post and the other stuff malcolm.

are you really just going to do this..

the post reminds me of Soygal's action..leave for retreat and prepare to die.

you know if this guy was really about all this have fun with wealth abuse the student women..it shows he is a fraud..actually never was what people claimed him to be.

end of.
have fun helping the guy out of this jam malcolm.

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:47 pm

Yes, this a major reason these discussions should be handled with care. Ultimately it his needs to handled by the Rigpa Sangha. Kripalu offers a possible model.
CedarTree wrote:The really sad thing is that a lot of people are going to see the news about this, discussions like this and others and not want to be involved with Gurus and or teachers.

Does this mean we shouldn't talk about it of course not but we should all practice noble speech and stress repeatedly that there are excellent teachers.

I can't even imagine how horrible it would be if we didn't have teachers like Ajaan Thanissaro, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bhikkhu Analayo, Ajahn Amaro, Shōhaku Okumura Roshi, Shoryu Bradley, Mahasi Sayadaw & Sayadaw U Pandita, or Luang Por Chah!

Without these heavy weights that have been supported solely by lay people and have been able to deeply explore, draw out content, develop teaching and practices, and help guide many of us in different situations the Dhamma may be very hard in some senses to develop and or get started on.

Though these teachers are also pretty amazing examples. Usually live incredibly modestly (Some robes and a bowl) and in the Zen masters I mentioned one lives off the grid.

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Minobu
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Minobu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:Yes, this a major reason these discussions should be handled with care. Ultimately it his needs to handled by the Rigpa Sangha. Kripalu offers a possible model.
this sense of entitlement that leads led this rinpoche to this...is this common among these men with rinpoche in their title.?

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
my god man...this is not about whether it is a scandal or not...
this guy was supposed to be a Dzogchen master highly evolved..read my last post...


There is a great deal of hyperbole in Tibetan culture. Don't believe the hype.
what about my Karma mudra post and the other stuff malcolm.

are you really just going to do this..

the post reminds me of Soygal's action..leave for retreat and prepare to die.

you know if this guy was really about all this have fun with wealth abuse the student women..it shows he is a fraud..actually never was what people claimed him to be.

end of.
have fun helping the guy out of this jam malcolm.
I have no interest in aiding or harming Sogyal. It is a broader issue, and this scandal Is merely a symptom of a much broader problem. Alas, we keep treating symptoms without addressing the cause.

Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:52 pm

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Yes, this a major reason these discussions should be handled with care. Ultimately it his needs to handled by the Rigpa Sangha. Kripalu offers a possible model.
this sense of entitlement that leads led this rinpoche to this...is this common among these men with rinpoche in their title.?
It is common in all partriarchal cultures, and ours is no exception.

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Adamantine
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Adamantine » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:32 pm

Some relevant thoughts of HHDL at the conference of Western Buddhist Teachers some years back:
WBT: Many students are afraid of breaking samaya—the commitment and bond with their guru—if they speak openly about what they perceive to be abuse. Does a teacher’s abusive behavior destroy the samaya and release the student?

HHDL: I don’t know. Although the guru has in a sense broken the samaya, that does not allow the student to break it as well. If the guru kills, that does not mean I can too! We shouldn’t emulate bad examples! We should respect the common perspective of the world in terms of what is right and wrong. Earlier I spoke of the situation with my two regents. Even though I have deep faith and respect for my teachers and consider them high spiritual beings, I did not hesitate to criticize their behavior because those actions were wrong no matter who did them. I didn’t speak out of hatred or disrespect, but because I love the Buddhadharma and their actions went against it.

It is essential to distinguish between two things: the person and their action. We criticize the action, not the person. The person is neutral: he or she wants to be happy and overcome suffering, and once their negative action stops, they will become a friend. The troublemaker is the afflictions and actions. Speaking out against the action does not mean that we hate the person. For example, we Tibetans fight Chinese injustice, but it doesn’t mean we are against the Chinese as human beings, even those who are ruthless. In meditation, I try to develop genuine compassion for these people while still opposing their actions. Thus, we may criticize a teacher’s abusive actions or negative qualities while we respect them as a person at the same time. There are still some beneficial aspects of the guru. A mistaken action doesn’t destroy their good qualities. If you criticize in this way, there is no danger of hellish rebirth as a result. Motivation is the key: speaking out of hatred or desire for revenge is wrong. However, if we know that by not speaking out, their bad behavior will continue and will harm the Buddhadharma, and we still remain silent, that is wrong.

WBT: There is much discussion in the West about the appropriateness of sexual contact when the two partners do not have equal power or status in the relationship. What is your opinion: are there times when sexual relationships between a Buddhist teacher and their student could be appropriate?

HHDL: It may happen that an unmarried teacher meets an unmarried student while teaching. If the relationship develops in a normal way with mutual agreement and mutual respect and they decide to marry, it is fine. When two people in a relationship treat each other equally, there is no difference in power or status during sexual intercourse. The teacher is not on a throne then! However, if the teacher is with one student one month and another the next, that is not right. Also, imposing or forcing sexual contact is wrong. So is misusing the idea of dakinis by saying things such as “You have signs of being a qualified dakini,” or flattering the student, “You have very great Dharma potential.” Women should not be afraid to say no!

WBT: In the West many professionals are thinking deeply about methods to use in cases of abuse. Are there Asian methods for dealing with abuse and for helping the involved parties?

HHDL: In the case of monastics, if any of the four root vows—to abandon killing a human being, stealing an object of value, sexual intercourse (heterosexual or homosexual), and lying about one’s spiritual attainments—is fully transgressed, that person must leave the monastery and is no longer a monastic. Aside from that, I do not know of any institutional methods for dealing with other cases.

All forms of abuse are against the general Buddhist rule. If an individual does not listen to the Buddha’s instructions, it is doubtful that they will listen to ordinary people like us. Earlier I suggested that when a teacher is clearly acting unethically and students have tried to discuss it with them but without result, then the only recourse is to publicize it in the community. I assume the teacher would feel ashamed and embarrassed and would decide to alter their behavior. I welcome your ideas on this topic.

Some people nearly give up their faith and respect for the Buddha if they are sexually abused by a Buddhist teacher. This makes me very sad. When it is explained that such actions are against the general Buddhist rule, their doubts in the Buddha and the Dharma decrease. As explained before, if a teacher gives instructions that contradict the path, you should not follow them. If anyone wishes to see scriptural sources to substantiate this or other points, we can show them.

As Buddhists, our motivation must be clear and sincere. Because there is a moral crisis in developed countries, we must explain what is proper behavior according to the Dharma and live that way ourselves. We are not inventing ethical conduct and imposing it on others: the Buddha himself described this and established the various sets of vows. As sincere followers of the Buddha, we are simply reminding ourselves and others of what the Buddha said. If someone does not want to follow this, that is their right. But if someone considers the Buddha their teacher, it is important to respect the ethical principals set out by the Buddha.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

Tolya M
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Re: Very sad news

Post by Tolya M » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:44 pm

methar wrote:If Tilopa did to Naropa today what he did then he would be in prison for a very long time.

Was Tilopa wrong? :shrug:

Todays followers would call the police.

Naropa didn't and we all know what happened next.
I do not address the message specifically to you. I am always amazed at the megalomania of western students. NNR once said that even if we do sadhana very diligently all our lives, we will not achieve even a part of what could the son of Marpa do... What of Naropa with Tilopa, if the official XXXXXXX can not explain what the five upadana skandhas and anatma are emasculating the cognitive settings to the level of the use of pronouns? There is no sense in assuming any siddhi in a person who violates the vows. Is he able to sit up to 7 days in dhyana or maybe he pushes a wooden phurba into a stone? It's very strange how people assume any over achievement where there is most likely something else is happening.

MiphamFan
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Re: Very sad news

Post by MiphamFan » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:15 pm

Tolya M wrote:
methar wrote:If Tilopa did to Naropa today what he did then he would be in prison for a very long time.

Was Tilopa wrong? :shrug:

Todays followers would call the police.

Naropa didn't and we all know what happened next.
I do not address the message specifically to you. I am always amazed at the megalomania of western students. NNR once said that even if we do sadhana very diligently all our lives, we will not achieve even a part of what could the son of Marpa do... What of Naropa with Tilopa, if the official XXXXXXX can not explain what the five upadana skandhas and anatma are emasculating the cognitive settings to the level of the use of pronouns? There is no sense in assuming any siddhi in a person who violates the vows. Is he able to sit up to 7 days in dhyana or maybe he pushes a wooden phurba into a stone? It's very strange how people assume any over achievement where there is most likely something else is happening.
He didn't say never. He says there is no guarantee whether you do 3 years or 7 years retreat that you can be as realised as the mahasiddhas of old, and when you come out of retreat you still need a job, income etc. If you really become a mahasiddha of course you don't need a job, don't need clothes but there is no guarantee of that.

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Re: Very sad news

Post by kirtu » Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:04 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
He didn't say never. He says there is no guarantee whether you do 3 years or 7 years retreat that you can be as realised as the mahasiddhas of old, and when you come out of retreat you still need a job, income etc. If you really become a mahasiddha of course you don't need a job, don't need clothes but there is no guarantee of that.
:woohoo: We could revive the Buddhist side of the Kumbh Mela !!!! :applause:

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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: Very sad news

Post by smcj » Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:05 am

Just so I'm not misunderstood, I would never advocate that the courts take into consideration Vajrayana principles anymore that I would advocate that they take into consideration Sharia Law. But since this forum is about Mahayana and Vajrayana I have no problem discussing those same principles here. Hopefully nobody will get freaked out about my orthodoxy. It's just a discussion.
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1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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