When you first started... (lightweight question)

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:41 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am
Lingpupa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:31 pm
When you first got started in the Dharma, what was the one thing you would most have liked to be told at the beginning that would have made your life, or even your progress in the Dharma, easier? Something trivial, like "Eat a good lunch at this centre, because supper is usually very small"? Or something deep and meaningful?
Drink boiled water.
+1!

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weitsicht
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by weitsicht » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 pm

Boomerang wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:20 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:06 pm
Don't mix the yanas
What do you mean by that?
Don't mix the practises of the yanas. When you start with one, stick with this at least for a while.
When you choos another yana's practise, discontinue the previous one.

When my teacher said this, he referred to the nine yanas http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

I mentioned that, because most of us come from a culture t in which it is common to "shop around". To get an orientation and taste that is good but at one point one should focus
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Vasana
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:09 am

weitsicht wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 pm
Boomerang wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:20 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:06 pm
Don't mix the yanas
What do you mean by that?
Don't mix the practises of the yanas. When you start with one, stick with this at least for a while.
When you choos another yana's practise, discontinue the previous one.

When my teacher said this, he referred to the nine yanas http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Nine_yanas

I mentioned that, because most of us come from a culture t in which it is common to "shop around". To get an orientation and taste that is good but at one point one should focus
I think this advise is very teacher/student-specific and not a universal piece of advice. One of my teachers for example says you shouldn't feel limited by anything and can apply whatever methods and frameworks that are helpful for you. If you are an alcoholic for example, applying the sutric path of renunciation for 'keeping on the waggon' may be more apt than trying to self-liberate something which you have too much attachment for to make self-liberation of that experience possible but may find it possible with other experiences/thoughts/sensations. That's different from picking or choosing.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Simon E.
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 am

The sutric path is not some kind of entry-level requirement before practicing HYT or Dzogchen.

The sutric path is an entirely different path with a different destination.

Many people have been freed from addictions by having their original minds pointed out to them by someone able to do that.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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weitsicht
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by weitsicht » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:02 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:09 am
weitsicht wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:56 pm

Don't mix the practises of the yanas. When you start with one, stick with this at least for a while.
When you choos another yana's practise, discontinue the previous one.
I think this advise is very teacher/student-specific and not a universal piece of advice. One of my teachers for example says you shouldn't feel limited by anything and can apply whatever methods and frameworks that are helpful for you. If you are an alcoholic for example, applying the sutric path of renunciation for 'keeping on the waggon' may be more apt than trying to self-liberate something which you have too much attachment for to make self-liberation of that experience possible but may find it possible with other experiences/thoughts/sensations. That's different from picking or choosing.
Vasana, I don't see a contraditction between what you said and what I said. It is a new bullet for the OP's initial question maybe. Such thing like to every pot its lid. The fit you'll find will be individually yours.

Also I would like to mention for starters who are motivated to look into / attracted to the Dharma but / because of serious personal issues (addiction, depression, borderline etc pp) - they should start with and patiently remain with vipassana, later on shamata and curb potential initial enthusiasm for the higher yanas. For their own sake.
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 am
The sutric path is not some kind of entry-level requirement before practicing HYT or Dzogchen.
I am earnestly sharing this opinion :twothumbsup:
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 am
The sutric path is an entirely different path with a different destination.
The ultimate result is all the same for all yanas.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:10 pm

The ultimate result is beyond all Yanas.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Vasana
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:38 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 am
The sutric path is not some kind of entry-level requirement before practicing HYT or Dzogchen.

The sutric path is an entirely different path with a different destination.

Many people have been freed from addictions by having their original minds pointed out to them by someone able to do that.
I never said it was to be seen as an entry level requirement for higher paths. The sutric path does indeed have a different destination but sometimes it can be wise for someone to flat out renounce (sutric) the more troublesome sources that spur on attachment/aversion if one doesn't yet have the capacity to instantly and always self-liberate (Dzogchen/Mahamudra) all instances of the 6 consciousnessess that may act as contributing factors for the arising of attachment/aversion.
While the source(s) of attachment are artificially put aside for the renunciants, that being can then train in the recognition of mind's nature that allows for self-liberation until they're at such a level where they neither feel the need to renounce nor indulge those objects that previously gave rise to attachment or aversion. Like training wheels that come of later on. Some people dont need them but most practioners are seldom attachment /aversion-free or dullness/agitation-free on a moment by moment basis , even long after they have gained confidence in the direct introduction and that which what was pointed out.

The alchoholic example is one that ChNNR often gives who also says Dzogchen practitioners should be free of limitations- this includes the limitation of thinking one can only practice Ati-Yoga and not the other yanas even if it's possible for the practice of the other yanas to aid one's overall view-meditation-conduct. Arrtificially giving up attachments isn't exactly Dzogchen but nor is indulging them. It's not an indispensable requirement but can be one of many beneficial approaches for people's varying circumstances.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Vasana
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:49 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:02 pm
to every pot its lid. The fit you'll find will be individually yours.
Yup!
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:08 pm

I have no problem with the idea that there will be those who require some kind of intervention before they can engage with Dharma. Endogenous depression and substance abuse are just two examples of conditions that might prove huge obstacles for the would-be Vajrayana student.
I would repeat, there are known examples of those who were able to move beyond such obstacles as the result of pointing out instructions.
Now that might not be a frequently encountered phenomenon.
But I am entirely unconvinced that Operation Bootstraps involving renunciation alone is likely to prove successful in the majority of cases either..have you any actual evidence to support that view?

In any case I would suggest despite your protestations, that you are positing a gradualist approach from sutra to Dzogchen which is not supported by the actuality of such teachings.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Vasana
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:08 pm
I have no problem with the idea that there will be those who require some kind of intervention before they can engage with Dharma. Endogenous depression and substance abuse are just two examples of conditions that might prove huge obstacles for the would-be Vajrayana student.

I would repeat, there are known examples of those who were able to move beyond such obstacles as the result of pointing out instructions.

Now that might not be a frequently encountered phenomenon.
Sure , there may be such cases and I recognize that it's possible for someone to apply the view held in paths of self-liberation without relying on the views of other yanas. It's worth remembering that pointing out instructions are really just the beginning. Gaining confidence and then stability in the recognition of what was pointed out is what the training is about - only the rare instantaneous types of people are perfectly stable in rigpa or ordinary mind right away, where 'thoughts and appearances arise as dharmakaya'....For everyone else, recognition & Vidya is fragmented since the continuity of such recognition hasn't been stabilized due to the persistence of adventitious afflictions, distraction etc. Dzogchen/Mahamudra isn't gradual but ones progression towards stable rigpa appears as gradual since only the instantaneous people are free from fluctuating between vidya/avidya.

My only point in regards to renunciation was that removing troublesome conditions that spur on strong attachment or other unskillful mental states or actions may help provide someone some 'breathing space' to actually then approach and stabilize the meaning of the higher yanas more efficiently and skilfully. Much in the same way a thief may benefit from taking a vow not to steal so there may be enough 'breathing space' in their conduct to dedicate their time for more virtuous actions or practice. Or in the same way someone might decide to give up reading the news and watching TV during a personal retreat. A temporary restriction on their habitual conduct later helps them go beyond the need for the restriction.
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:08 pm
But I am entirely unconvinced that Operation Bootstraps involving renunciation alone is likely to prove successful in the majority of cases either..have you any actual evidence to support that view?
No, because that wasn't a view I was putting forth.
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:08 pm
In any case I would suggest despite your protestations, that you are positing a gradualist approach from sutra to Dzogchen which is not supported by the actuality of such teachings.
Not positing a gradual approach , just positing that beings should apply whatever methods are best suited to aiding them in the process of uprooting the afflictions. I doubt you would have much issue if the focus was on the acceptability of combining Mahamudra/Dzogchen and tantra yanas. Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioners are free to use tantric methods or not and for some, these methods can reveal the view/meditation of Mahamudra/Dzogchen if it had not yet been recognized. Sure the tantric methods don't need to be used here if one's teacher teaches the path like that but I'm sure you've heard of great practitioners who do indeed end up 'mixing' the methods of various yanas to enhance their practice or for the purpose of other skilfull means.

Besides, sometimes the meaning of a Pali text may have applications and be aligned in a Dzogchen sense much in the same way masters will provide citations from sutras as well as tantras and upadeshas in their writings. Is that mixing or just plain compatibility?
Last edited by Vasana on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:36 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:45 pm
Don't take what people on internet forums say about Tibetan Buddhism, and above all Dzogchen, very seriously. :smile:

bump
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Vasana
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:38 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:36 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:45 pm
Don't take what people on internet forums say about Tibetan Buddhism, and above all Dzogchen, very seriously. :smile:

bump
:oops: :juggling:
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Simon E. » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:11 pm

We are unlikely to agree. I will withdraw from the discussion.

:namaste:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Terma » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:26 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:36 am
The sutric path is not some kind of entry-level requirement before practicing HYT or Dzogchen.
Not sure I completely agree with your statement here. Though it may not be a "requirement" as you put it, I think that for example, the serious cutivation of bodhicitta is quite important. For most of us this involves a great deal of mind training in order to move away from our very ego centric self centered attitudes. Also I think it really helps to be able to have at the very least some understanding of emptiness. These and other things really help to provide the foundations needed for a good Vajrayana practice.

Having said this, one of my advices would actually be to set a good foundation and not to look for the so called "advanced practices" to soon. There are so many people who go straight ro receiving initiation, practicing sadhana's, and so-forth but are still just as self centered as ever, and who succumbs to their negative emotions in the same way. Dharma practice is meant to transform our minds and in most cases this is a more gradual thing.

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by daibunny » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:57 pm

justsit wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:37 pm
Gomdens are ungodly uncomfortable. A good buckwheat hull zafu is da bomb.
If you are flexible enough to use one of the traditional postures, a buckwheat zafu is one of the best investments you will ever make, i agree. Gomdens really are terrible.
Nothing remains
Of the house that I was born in--
Fireflies.

- Santoka, 1882-1940
Mountain Tasting: Zen Haiku by Santoka Taneda, 1980, p.48
Translated by John Stevens

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Harimoo » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:08 pm

In the Sangha, choose carefully who you are listening to
or
don't listen to anybody except your guru (hardcore version)

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by diamind » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:24 pm

Learn Tibetan

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heart
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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by heart » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:24 pm

Harimoo wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:08 pm
In the Sangha, choose carefully who you are listening to
or
don't listen to anybody except your guru (hardcore version)
I put my vote for the hardcore version. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by Aryjna » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:09 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:09 am
Lingpupa wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:31 pm
When you first got started in the Dharma, what was the one thing you would most have liked to be told at the beginning that would have made your life, or even your progress in the Dharma, easier? Something trivial, like "Eat a good lunch at this centre, because supper is usually very small"? Or something deep and meaningful?
Drink boiled water.
Why?

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Re: When you first started... (lightweight question)

Post by diamind » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:34 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:24 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:08 pm
In the Sangha, choose carefully who you are listening to
or
don't listen to anybody except your guru (hardcore version)
I put my vote for the hardcore version. :smile:

/magnus
I love listening to the tales of fellow students. I've heard some really neat stories and I've heard some preposterous ones. After you get screwed over by listening to second hand tales you quickly learn to take every single one with a grain of salt no matter who is talking. Also Dharma student are an authority on nothing except wrong view, always confirm with a qualified teacher or find a quote.

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