Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:49 pm

Adamantine wrote: actual samaya being able or not being able to be conferred by unqualified or unrealized Gurus? It appeared you had indicated there were passages that covered that territory.
From chapter nine of the same text:

  • A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars,
    who is self-important,
    stupid, literal-minded,
    who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra,
    has harsh words for others, is boastful,
    has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya,
    is unable to answer questions,
    has little learning, and great pride —
    such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple.
    He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra
    and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Lhasa wrote:
Yes, honestly, some of us only have online teachers and no where to ask questions. All I've heard is Garchen Rinpoche say to keep your mind full of love, bodhicitta.

Alright.

I am going to say something that may make me unpopular, but if you've only taken teachings or "empowerments" on-line, I think there are no "classic" samayas.
It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
I did not make that argument. Nor do I intend to.

I do, however, not mind being wrong. I do not believe there have been full wangkurs given on-line, where the vidhyadhara vows are recited. If I am wrong, so be it. Someone can correct me with specific examples, and I will eat my proverbial hat. If such full wangkur were in fact given, live via the internet, it would follow that, as is traditional, the explanation regarding the various samayas would also be given, in detail, just as it is, in full wangkurs, in "meat space."
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Grigoris
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
Wait a second there Malcolm... You yourself, in another thread, said that one cannot receive the Vase Empowerment without getting knocked on the head, which means the empowerment would be incomplete. Now you are saying that the samaya water is not necessary to complete the empowerment?

Seems contradictory to me.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:29 am

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
Wait a second there Malcolm... You yourself, in another thread, said that one cannot receive the Vase Empowerment without getting knocked on the head, which means the empowerment would be incomplete. Now you are saying that the samaya water is not necessary to complete the empowerment?

Seems contradictory to me.
The consequence of maintain our friend Cone's POV is that Garchen is wasting his time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lhasa
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Lhasa » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:32 am

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
Wait a second there Malcolm... You yourself, in another thread, said that one cannot receive the Vase Empowerment without getting knocked on the head, which means the empowerment would be incomplete. Now you are saying that the samaya water is not necessary to complete the empowerment?

Seems contradictory to me.
The consequence of maintain our friend Cone's POV is that Garchen is wasting his time.
And mine. No more 3am teachings for me.

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conebeckham
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:02 am

[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Adamantine
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:08 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote: actual samaya being able or not being able to be conferred by unqualified or unrealized Gurus? It appeared you had indicated there were passages that covered that territory.
From chapter nine of the same text:

  • A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars,
    who is self-important,
    stupid, literal-minded,
    who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra,
    has harsh words for others, is boastful,
    has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya,
    is unable to answer questions,
    has little learning, and great pride —
    such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple.
    He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra
    and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati.
Thank you Malcolm. That's a lot of conditions to meet. The translation has the list end with an AND great pride.. so was the intent of the source text to imply only if a master fulfills all of these negative descriptions they can not teach Secret Mantra? Or is just one or two potentially enough to disqualify them?
It's not clear in this excerpt as it's not addressed: in the case of an unqualified master granting Empowerment that a samaya link is not made in some way, or if a samaya link is made through the temdrel of mutual intent and the ritual enactment of the source tantric texts etc. so I'll assume you have concluded that samaya is not transmitted from your own logical inference?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:33 am

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote: actual samaya being able or not being able to be conferred by unqualified or unrealized Gurus? It appeared you had indicated there were passages that covered that territory.
From chapter nine of the same text:

  • A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars,
    who is self-important,
    stupid, literal-minded,
    who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra,
    has harsh words for others, is boastful,
    has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya,
    is unable to answer questions,
    has little learning, and great pride —
    such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple.
    He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra
    and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati.
Thank you Malcolm. That's a lot of conditions to meet. The translation has the list end with an AND great pride.. so was the intent of the source text to imply only if a master fulfills all of these negative descriptions they can not teach Secret Mantra? Or is just one or two potentially enough to disqualify them?
I think a number of different kinds of gurus are included in this list. I do not take it to mean that someone must possess all of these faults in full; but if they have enough of these faults then this passage applies to them. "Enough" means enough of these faults which demonstrate through their conduct that these faults exist in them.
Adamantine wrote: It's not clear in this excerpt as it's not addressed: in the case of an unqualified master granting Empowerment that a samaya link is not made in some way, or if a samaya link is made through the temdrel of mutual intent and the ritual enactment of the source tantric texts etc. so I'll assume you have concluded that samaya is not transmitted from your own logical inference?
It is made very clear: "He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati." It is an unequivocal statement.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:37 am

conebeckham wrote:[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
It is a logical consequence of asserting that online transmissions do not transmit samaya.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
It is a logical consequence of asserting that online transmissions do not transmit samaya.


Is it your opinion that all on-line transmissions transmit Samaya? For that matter, do Jenangs and Jinlabs transmit the same samayas as Wangkurs and Wangchens? If so, is it not a requirement that such samayas are elucidated, or is merely "maintaining bodhicitta in one's heart" sufficient?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Adamantine
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:52 am

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
From chapter nine of the same text:

  • A master lacking a connection with a lineage of scholars,
    who is self-important,
    stupid, literal-minded,
    who does not understand the meaning of Secret Mantra,
    has harsh words for others, is boastful,
    has entered false paths, has not seen the mandala of the empowerment, disregards samaya,
    is unable to answer questions,
    has little learning, and great pride —
    such an unexamined master is a māra for the disciple.
    He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra
    and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati.
Thank you Malcolm. That's a lot of conditions to meet. The translation has the list end with an AND great pride.. so was the intent of the source text to imply only if a master fulfills all of these negative descriptions they can not teach Secret Mantra? Or is just one or two potentially enough to disqualify them?
I think a number of different kinds of gurus are included in this list. I do not take it to mean that someone must possess all of these faults in full; but if they have enough of these faults then this passage applies to them. "Enough" means enough of these faults which demonstrate through their conduct that these faults exist in them.
Adamantine wrote: It's not clear in this excerpt as it's not addressed: in the case of an unqualified master granting Empowerment that a samaya link is not made in some way, or if a samaya link is made through the temdrel of mutual intent and the ritual enactment of the source tantric texts etc. so I'll assume you have concluded that samaya is not transmitted from your own logical inference?
It is made very clear: "He is not a master who can teach Secret Mantra and is unable to teach the Great Perfection, Ati." It is an unequivocal statement.
Fair enough Malcolm. Thanks again for sharing these passages with us.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:57 am

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:

Alright.

I am going to say something that may make me unpopular, but if you've only taken teachings or "empowerments" on-line, I think there are no "classic" samayas.
It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
I did not make that argument. Nor do I intend to.

I do, however, not mind being wrong. I do not believe there have been full wangkurs given on-line, where the vidhyadhara vows are recited. If I am wrong, so be it. Someone can correct me with specific examples, and I will eat my proverbial hat. If such full wangkur were in fact given, live via the internet, it would follow that, as is traditional, the explanation regarding the various samayas would also be given, in detail, just as it is, in full wangkurs, in "meat space."
What is the difference between the internet and sitting in a room watching the whole thing on a big screen with the lama hundreds of feet away being listened too on a local fm radio channel, and the samaya substances just being handed out to 4,000 people at the end? The samaya substances? Is that all? Geographical proximity? As far as I can tell, the only difference between an empowerment given live online and one being given locally is the preference of the lama.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Lhasa
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Lhasa » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:01 am

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
It is a logical consequence of asserting that online transmissions do not transmit samaya.
And without samaya, whatever that is, we are trying to go up a creek without a paddle?

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:04 am

conebeckham wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
It is a logical consequence of asserting that online transmissions do not transmit samaya.


Is it your opinion that all on-line transmissions transmit Samaya? For that matter, do Jenangs and Jinlabs transmit the same samayas as Wangkurs and Wangchens? If so, is it not a requirement that such samayas are elucidated, or is merely "maintaining bodhicitta in one's heart" sufficient?
It is my opinion that if a qualified guru wishes to create samaya bonds with people who are a) tuning in over the internet or b) are present in the room, that is their prerogative. I see no reason at all why refuge ceremonies, monastic ordinations, bodhisattva vow rites, and so on as well as full abhishekas cannot be conferred online. The only difference I see is whether or not some guru feels comfortable with doing so or not. If they feel comfortable with it, that is fine with me and I will respect that their students received the transmission they say they received. Obviously gurus who are not comfortable with giving transmissions and empowerments online will not be online for that reason.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:08 am

Lhasa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:[Some content edited out.]

Just to be clear--Garchen Rinpoche is not wasting anyone's time. That is an extreme interpretation of my words. Connections are established, we just perhaps differ on the extent of those connections.
It is a logical consequence of asserting that online transmissions do not transmit samaya.
And without samaya, whatever that is, we are trying to go up a creek without a paddle?
If you do not have samaya, you did not receive the empowerment, you are not qualified to practice Vajrayāna, and so whatever effort you make in practicing Secret Mantra will become poison rather than medicine.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by smcj » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:20 am

Malcolm wrote:If you do not have samaya, you did not receive the empowerment, you are not qualified to practice Vajrayāna, and so whatever effort you make in practicing Secret Mantra will become poison rather than medicine.
Malcolm, would you have enough confidence in an online initiation to do a retreat on that specific practice without having had the initiation duplicated elsewhere?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

TRC
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by TRC » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:24 am

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you do not have samaya, you did not receive the empowerment, you are not qualified to practice Vajrayāna, and so whatever effort you make in practicing Secret Mantra will become poison rather than medicine.
Malcolm, would you have enough confidence in an online initiation to do a retreat on that specific practice without having had the initiation duplicated elsewhere?
Would this not be a question for another thread smcj?

smcj
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by smcj » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:28 am

TRC wrote:
smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you do not have samaya, you did not receive the empowerment, you are not qualified to practice Vajrayāna, and so whatever effort you make in practicing Secret Mantra will become poison rather than medicine.
Malcolm, would you have enough confidence in an online initiation to do a retreat on that specific practice without having had the initiation duplicated elsewhere?
Would this not be a question for another thread smcj?
I'm ok with that.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:14 am

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If you do not have samaya, you did not receive the empowerment, you are not qualified to practice Vajrayāna, and so whatever effort you make in practicing Secret Mantra will become poison rather than medicine.
Malcolm, would you have enough confidence in an online initiation to do a retreat on that specific practice without having had the initiation duplicated elsewhere?
If I had confidence in the guru, I would absolutely have that confidence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Konchog1
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Konchog1 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:15 am

Malcolm wrote:
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited,
    then these signs will be successfully averted.
Do this mean the Three Heaps Sutra or something else?
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

-Paraphrase of Khensur Rinpoche Lobsang Tsephel citing the Guhyasamaja Tantra

"All memories and thoughts are the union of emptiness and knowing, the Mind.
Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
Through the qualities of meditating in that way,
Mental obscurations are purified and the dharmakaya is attained."

-Ra Lotsawa, All-pervading Melodious Drumbeats

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