Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

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Grigoris
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:My remark assumes you are following a qualified guru.
Need I point out that people believe all sorts of nutcases are qualified gurus because there is n't like a guru university with a guru degree and postgrad that you can check on. A person that is qualified in one lineage may not be considered qualified in another. Etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by pael » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Lamas are not deity impresarios.
Impresarios? No.
Conduit? Eh, maybe.
Embodiment? Supposedly.
Sambogakaya Service Provider? Too cutesy.

How would you put it?
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
I have have taken initiations face to face from two different person. DI in webcast from third person and initiations from fourth person via livestream. Which of them is my root guru?
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:53 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: Impresarios? No.
Conduit? Eh, maybe.
Embodiment? Supposedly.
Sambogakaya Service Provider? Too cutesy.

How would you put it?
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
I have have taken initiations face to face from two different person. DI in webcast from third person and initiations from fourth person via livestream. Which of them is my root guru?
This article by Erik Pema Kunsang may be helpful: http://levekunst.com/club-nondualite/
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:My remark assumes you are following a qualified guru.
Need I point out that people believe all sorts of nutcases are qualified gurus because there is n't like a guru university with a guru degree and postgrad that you can check on. A person that is qualified in one lineage may not be considered qualified in another. Etc...
The qualifications of the guru are mentioned in many tantras.

And in fact there are guru universities, called shedras. Graduates of them are called loppons, khenpos, and geshes.

My advice to beginners is to always seek teachings from lineage heads, and then work out from there.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:26 pm

Adamantine wrote:This article by Erik Pema Kunsang may be helpful: http://levekunst.com/club-nondualite/
Interesting piece. Some quotes:
The word root guru has a sacred meaning, that my teachers define in a very specific way: the person who not only tries, but succeeds in bringing about a complete change in your mind to such an extend that the grip of duality is loosened and that the nature of mind is totally laid bare in its naked state and can be accessed whenever remembered for the rest of your life.
When Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche was once asked to give pointing-out instruction to a group of many thousand people, he simply laughed of the absurdity, because nondual mind needs to be authenticated by the teacher and he knew that he couldn’t check thousands of people. When someone is being told, without being checked, “you have now received the pointing-out introduction,” it’s at best wishful thinking and, at worst, a direct lie.

The process of validation can be short or long, but it requires a competent master who knows you and listens to you while you reply specific questions, not from hearsay or book learning, but from present experience and not from a memory of a peak experience in the past.
Within the Buddhist Vajrayana context, how can there be a samaya bond to a root guru, if you haven’t yet found the true nature of mind?
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:29 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Within the Buddhist Vajrayana context, how can there be a samaya bond to a root guru, if you haven’t yet found the true nature of mind?

This is definitely a Dzogtchen point of view. Dzongsar's point of view seems more informed by Sakya, which means that any major empowerment you take creates that sort of bond.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by conebeckham » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:34 pm

Adamantine wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
I have have taken initiations face to face from two different person. DI in webcast from third person and initiations from fourth person via livestream. Which of them is my root guru?
This article by Erik Pema Kunsang may be helpful: http://levekunst.com/club-nondualite/

Thank you for posting this! Excellent.

I think it's a Mahamudra, as well as a Dzogchen, point of view. But one has to differentiate between the Root guru, and various other types of gurus.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by gb9810 » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:35 pm

conebeckham wrote: Someone once quipped "Making mistake after mistake, I walk the unmistaken path."
ནོར་ཞིང་ནོར་ཞིང་ཡང་དག་ལམ་ལ་འགྲོ་
Might you know its original source? (was it composed by KTGR or ??)
conebeckham wrote: I will pray, now, that everyone is able to receive complete empowerment, consciously, and to have the means and ability to practice whatever methods to which they are most suited, as soon as possible.
amen.. or, e-ma!

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by pael » Fri Aug 18, 2017 4:54 pm

Vasana wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote: When one takes any empowerment refuge in the guru comes before refuge in the Three Jewels.
I didn't know it contains refuge in the guru. I thought it contain refuge in Padmasambhava. And containing also, asking lama to give refuge in liturgy. I didn't know translation of every word, not even half. At Garchen Rinpoches livestream empowerment I also repeated after translators words. I also didn't think initiation givers to be omniscient during initiation. I feel I received them from human.
Not more than ESP's or bodhisattvas. I maybe thought them to be enlightened, but not omniscient. Do I have received initiations/vows truly?
Padmasambhava is the guru. The activities and intent of Vajrayana teachers are not separate from Padmasambhava. The guru is said to be 'kinder than all the Buddhas' since you received empowerment from the Guru [who is also an expression and conduit of the Buddha's activities). As far as I've been taught, sincere intent in the meaning is more important than 100% perfect pronunciation. If you're really uncertain about it all, then just study more so that you're more prepared and try and receive an empowerment next time. Before you do that, maybe you should contact those you received empowerment from and see what they say.
I meant that I didn't consider them to be perfect. Only visualizing image of Buddha on where they were sitting. I didn't consider them to have any inner qualities nor highest wisdom.
I didn't consider them to be fully enlightened. I also didn't thought Padmasambhava being a buddha.
I only thought Guru is leader of initiation ceremony and not as some with whom I have relationship.
I also didn't thought to meet them again. Do I have received anything from them?
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Josef » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:00 pm

pael wrote:
Vasana wrote:
pael wrote: I didn't know it contains refuge in the guru. I thought it contain refuge in Padmasambhava. And containing also, asking lama to give refuge in liturgy. I didn't know translation of every word, not even half. At Garchen Rinpoches livestream empowerment I also repeated after translators words. I also didn't think initiation givers to be omniscient during initiation. I feel I received them from human.
Not more than ESP's or bodhisattvas. I maybe thought them to be enlightened, but not omniscient. Do I have received initiations/vows truly?
Padmasambhava is the guru. The activities and intent of Vajrayana teachers are not separate from Padmasambhava. The guru is said to be 'kinder than all the Buddhas' since you received empowerment from the Guru [who is also an expression and conduit of the Buddha's activities). As far as I've been taught, sincere intent in the meaning is more important than 100% perfect pronunciation. If you're really uncertain about it all, then just study more so that you're more prepared and try and receive an empowerment next time. Before you do that, maybe you should contact those you received empowerment from and see what they say.
I meant that I didn't consider them to be perfect. Only visualizing image of Buddha on where they were sitting. I didn't consider them to have any inner qualities nor highest wisdom.
I didn't consider them to be fully enlightened. I also didn't thought Padmasambhava being a buddha.
I only thought Guru is leader of initiation ceremony and not as some with whom I have relationship.
I also didn't thought to meet them again. Do I have received anything from them?
what were you looking to receive?
Kye ma!
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by pael » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:24 pm

Josef wrote:
pael wrote:
Vasana wrote:
Padmasambhava is the guru. The activities and intent of Vajrayana teachers are not separate from Padmasambhava. The guru is said to be 'kinder than all the Buddhas' since you received empowerment from the Guru [who is also an expression and conduit of the Buddha's activities). As far as I've been taught, sincere intent in the meaning is more important than 100% perfect pronunciation. If you're really uncertain about it all, then just study more so that you're more prepared and try and receive an empowerment next time. Before you do that, maybe you should contact those you received empowerment from and see what they say.
I meant that I didn't consider them to be perfect. Only visualizing image of Buddha on where they were sitting. I didn't consider them to have any inner qualities nor highest wisdom.
I didn't consider them to be fully enlightened. I also didn't thought Padmasambhava being a buddha.
I only thought Guru is leader of initiation ceremony and not as some with whom I have relationship.
I also didn't thought to meet them again. Do I have received anything from them?

what were you looking to receive?
At first initiation to get connection to Sukhavati and to purify bad thoughts against Lotus Sutra. During initiation at samaya part I thought to observe moral conduct without caring anyone else. During reciting I swallowed air. After initiation I repented receiving initiation because I thought I betrayed my family. Initiations after that to repair and renew vows. And maybe to see if lama faints during initiation to see do I have broken samaya.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Temicco » Fri Aug 18, 2017 6:27 pm

Malcolm wrote: My advice to beginners is to always seek teachings from lineage heads, and then work out from there.
Why? What makes lineage heads better than other teachers to seek teachings from?
"It is just a matter of never letting there be even a moment's interruption in your awareness of your real nature."
--Yuanwu Keqin

"As long as you let go and entrust with belief, your daily life itself can be meditation."
--Daehaeng Kun Sunim

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:The qualifications of the guru are mentioned in many tantras.
Indeed they are! But how many newbs (or even people that have been on the path for a while) are aware of them?
And in fact there are guru universities, called shedras. Graduates of them are called loppons, khenpos, and geshes.
Indeed! A couple of points though: 1) It is not a prerequisite of giving empowerments that one is a loppon etc... 2) I can think of at least three Geshe running around, that I wouldn't take empowerments from!
My advice to beginners is to always seek teachings from lineage heads, and then work out from there.
This is good advice. Not exactly tenable for everybody. Possibly a guarantee of sorts, but the Karmapa issue comes to mind here...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Within the Buddhist Vajrayana context, how can there be a samaya bond to a root guru, if you haven’t yet found the true nature of mind?

This is definitely a Dzogtchen point of view. Dzongsar's point of view seems more informed by Sakya, which means that any major empowerment you take creates that sort of bond.

Well, if we have received Dzogchen transmission we are free to adopt Ati view of all lower-yana 'samayas' isn't it?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:45 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:

This is definitely a Dzogtchen point of view. Dzongsar's point of view seems more informed by Sakya, which means that any major empowerment you take creates that sort of bond.

Well, if we have received Dzogchen transmission we are free to adopt Ati view of all lower-yana 'samayas' isn't it?
Well, you're always free to adopt whatever view you want, isn't it?
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:45 pm

gb9810 wrote:
conebeckham wrote: Someone once quipped "Making mistake after mistake, I walk the unmistaken path."
ནོར་ཞིང་ནོར་ཞིང་ཡང་དག་ལམ་ལ་འགྲོ་
Might you know its original source? (was it composed by KTGR or ??)
Yup.
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by kirtu » Fri Aug 18, 2017 8:34 pm

pael wrote:
Vasana wrote:
pael wrote: I didn't know it contains refuge in the guru. I thought it contain refuge in Padmasambhava. And containing also, asking lama to give refuge in liturgy. I didn't know translation of every word, not even half. At Garchen Rinpoches livestream empowerment I also repeated after translators words. I also didn't think initiation givers to be omniscient during initiation. I feel I received them from human.
Not more than ESP's or bodhisattvas. I maybe thought them to be enlightened, but not omniscient. Do I have received initiations/vows truly?
Padmasambhava is the guru. The activities and intent of Vajrayana teachers are not separate from Padmasambhava. The guru is said to be 'kinder than all the Buddhas' since you received empowerment from the Guru [who is also an expression and conduit of the Buddha's activities). As far as I've been taught, sincere intent in the meaning is more important than 100% perfect pronunciation. If you're really uncertain about it all, then just study more so that you're more prepared and try and receive an empowerment next time. Before you do that, maybe you should contact those you received empowerment from and see what they say.
I meant that I didn't consider them to be perfect.
Perfect - gurus are not necessarily perfect. However even flawed gurus (and I mean really flawed gurus - but gurus who really have Bodhicitta as their guide and who have repaired their vows and who are authorised to give the empowerment and who have been trained to do so but who might still have personal issues) but who are nonetheless qualified are the manifestation of the Buddhas at that moment to train students.

You mentioned two teachers (if I have read your posts correctly) - Nhamkai Norbu and HE Garchen Rinpoche. Both of them are perfect teachers. They are Buddhas manifesting as very high Bodhisattvas (some people really perceive them as Buddhas). If you want to consider one of them as your guru that would be excellent. But there is no need to choose. This will unfold in it's time.
Only visualizing image of Buddha on where they were sitting. I didn't consider them to have any inner qualities nor highest wisdom.
I didn't consider them to be fully enlightened. I also didn't thought Padmasambhava being a buddha.
I only thought Guru is leader of initiation ceremony and not as some with whom I have relationship.
I also didn't thought to meet them again. Do I have received anything from them?
Did you receive anything? Do you think you received anything? Only you can tell. I will bet that you at least received a blessing, a nudge that moves you more in the direction of Buddha. The whole point of the empowerment is to purify the student and plant the seed of realization within them (which is metaphorical for getting the student to connect with their Buddhanature).

Nonetheless if you have confidence in the teacher even just as an ordinary teacher you could still benefit. Students are at all different levels and as Cone mentioned there is a kind of unfolding or development in tantric teaching and capabilities. This is true for Mahayana as well. All of our Vajrayana teachers are Mahayna teachers so if you have some confidence in them even just as Mahayana teachers there is benefit.

Pael, you mentioned that you took Amitabha empowerment from Ch. Nhamkai Norbu. Why not practice Amitabha? It's a universal Mahayana and Vajrayana practice. There is no need to use the Tibetan/Sanskrit mantra if you prefer the Japanese or Korean or Chinese mantra. What matters is keeping Bodhicitta and allowing the practice to develop and transform us.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:47 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

This is definitely a Dzogtchen point of view. Dzongsar's point of view seems more informed by Sakya, which means that any major empowerment you take creates that sort of bond.

Well, if we have received Dzogchen transmission we are free to adopt Ati view of all lower-yana 'samayas' isn't it?
Well, you're always free to adopt whatever view you want, isn't it?
Apparently not because according to DJKR if we have some kind of Mahayoga samaya and adopt a liberal democratic feminist view about a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and make it public because private attempts at reform didn't work (over 20yrs) we will roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Aug 18, 2017 10:49 pm

:s
Grigoris wrote:
conebeckham wrote:A complex subject cannot be summed up in a quick quote. You should read the section called "the Ripening Empowerments" first, esp. ppgs. 17-27.
Well that just shattered any notion I ever had of receiving empowerment. On the basis of that text I probably haven't even consciously received a pubic hair from the butt of empowerment, let alone complete empowerment.
:consoling:
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by smcj » Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:23 pm

Adamantine wrote:...according to DJKR if we have some kind of Mahayoga samaya and adopt a liberal democratic feminist view about a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and make it public because private attempts at reform didn't work (over 20yrs) we will roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity.
Just out of curiosity I've got a couple of questions.
1. Is what he said news to you?
2. As an exercise in creative writing, can you develop a workable rationale for what he said?
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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In the strangest of places if you look at it right.
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