Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Adamantine wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Adamantine wrote:Well, if we have received Dzogchen transmission we are free to adopt Ati view of all lower-yana 'samayas' isn't it?
Well, you're always free to adopt whatever view you want, isn't it?
Apparently not because according to DJKR if we have some kind of Mahayoga samaya and adopt a liberal democratic feminist view about a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and make it public because private attempts at reform didn't work (over 20yrs) we will roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity.
Well, I'm not quite sure what you are trying to get at. For the purposes of this discussion let's assume that you have correctly described DJKR's view. So what? You are free to adopt whatever view you like. If, for some reason, you are inclined to adopt what you take to be DJKR's view then if you feel you have some kind of Mahayoga samaya with a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and assuming you don't want to roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity, I'm guessing you would not make it public. However, if you are not so inclined, perhaps you would.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
gb9810
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by gb9810 »

dzogchungpa wrote:
gb9810 wrote:
conebeckham wrote: Someone once quipped "Making mistake after mistake, I walk the unmistaken path."
ནོར་ཞིང་ནོར་ཞིང་ཡང་དག་ལམ་ལ་འགྲོ་
Might you know its original source? (was it composed by KTGR or ??)
Yup.
thank you! (indeed, I should have thought of googling the English instead...)

off topic I know but just want to thank you.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by dzogchungpa »

gb9810 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
gb9810 wrote: ནོར་ཞིང་ནོར་ཞིང་ཡང་དག་ལམ་ལ་འགྲོ་
Might you know its original source? (was it composed by KTGR or ??)
Yup.
thank you! (indeed, I should have thought of googling the English instead...)

off topic I know but just want to thank you.
No problem. BTW, how did you know the Tibetan?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

...I f you feel you have some kind of Mahayoga samaya with a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and assuming you don't want to roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity, I'm guessing you would not make it public.
The premise of the quandary here is that you are in a position where you need to take action in order to to prevent harm to others. That's a tough one. But if you're removed from the situation you have the luxury of choosing how you want to react to it, which for an organization that size is most people. Big difference.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
gb9810
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by gb9810 »

dzogchungpa wrote:
gb9810 wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Yup.
thank you! (indeed, I should have thought of googling the English instead...)

off topic I know but just want to thank you.
No problem. BTW, how did you know the Tibetan?
well, this is somewhat embarrassing: 'cuz he used to say it so often!
I am sure I had written down somewhere the full verses, but the first line certainly left the clearest impression.
But since he quotes Mila and various masters often, I was not clear whether it was his own composition.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Grigoris »

Adamantine wrote::s
Grigoris wrote:
conebeckham wrote:A complex subject cannot be summed up in a quick quote. You should read the section called "the Ripening Empowerments" first, esp. ppgs. 17-27.
Well that just shattered any notion I ever had of receiving empowerment. On the basis of that text I probably haven't even consciously received a pubic hair from the butt of empowerment, let alone complete empowerment.
:consoling:
I'm not upset about it, just made me realise how much is really involved and how deep and detailed a practice empowerment actually is. Actually I feel that it is motivating me to receive even more empowerments, in order to perfect the practice. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by pael »

kirtu wrote:
Pael, you mentioned that you took Amitabha empowerment from Ch. Nhamkai Norbu. Why not practice Amitabha?
Kirt
I'm sorry if did express it unclearly, my native language isn't English. I received this from Tulku Dakpa. It was Amitayus from Konchog Chidu. Amitayus is Amitabha? But, I thought Vajrasattva is needed to ensure pure samaya. Amitabha+Vajrasattva=2. Does practicing two prevent Sukhavati? Atisha didn't like practicing many.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by chimechodra »

Malcolm, I was wondering, could you elaborate how this relates to the direct introduction Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives during retreats/webcasts and on transmission days? If I'm understanding correctly, as long as you follow along as best as you can, try to understand what the transmission is about by reading/studying before hand, and pay close attention, then everything is gravy and you've made a connection successfully enough to continue working with the transmission using the practice and advice of Rinpoche? Likewise, if you're someone who tuned into the transmission but have no idea what's going on, what's the point, etc., it would be similar to the discussion we're having here, that there's no real connection due to no real understanding?
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Grigoris »

pael wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Pael, you mentioned that you took Amitabha empowerment from Ch. Nhamkai Norbu. Why not practice Amitabha?
Kirt
I'm sorry if did express it unclearly, my native language isn't English. I received this from Tulku Dakpa. It was Amitayus from Konchog Chidu. Amitayus is Amitabha? But, I thought Vajrasattva is needed to ensure pure samaya. Amitabha+Vajrasattva=2. Does practicing two prevent Sukhavati? Atisha didn't like practicing many.
Amitayus is the Long-Life aspect of Amitabha (I have the same empowerment from Konchog Chidu too).

The thing is, my dear pael, that it is not clearly established whether you have samaya anyway. I think that one thing all these conversations about samaya have clarified is that : if you don't know if you have samaya or not, then you probably don't have samaya.

An example: in order to receive the lung and tri for Dudjom Lingpa's "Buddhahood without Meditation" Loppon Ogyan Tanzin Rinpoche told those present that to receive it they have to complete 1,200,000 Vajra Guru mantra. He asked them if they are willing to make a pledge to complete this number before the end of their life. Those that agreed were allowed to stay. Those that did not agree had to leave. Only one person said "No." and left the room. Instead of leaving the center he sat in the adjoining kitchen and tried to eavesdrop. Rinpoche spotted him and became mightily upset. He kicked him out of the center before starting the lung and tri.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine »

That's a good deal: 1,200,000 is really not so much.. Vajra Guru goes fast..
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Adamantine »

smcj wrote:
Adamantine wrote:...according to DJKR if we have some kind of Mahayoga samaya and adopt a liberal democratic feminist view about a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and make it public because private attempts at reform didn't work (over 20yrs) we will roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity.
Just out of curiosity I've got a couple of questions.
1. Is what he said news to you?
2. As an exercise in creative writing, can you develop a workable rationale for what he said?
I find it a relief that two of my own teachers: HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche have clearly expressed a view of Samaya that is significantly different, and which I find both more practical, rational, and which I have no trouble accepting. So at least I have Gurus whose explanation of samaya causes me no significant cognitive dissonance, and I can adopt their view without feeling I am going against Vajrayana Dharma.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Josef »

Adamantine wrote:
smcj wrote:
Adamantine wrote:...according to DJKR if we have some kind of Mahayoga samaya and adopt a liberal democratic feminist view about a teacher who has serially abused women, violently, for 20+ yrs and make it public because private attempts at reform didn't work (over 20yrs) we will roast in the fieriest pit of Vajra hell without Dharma for almost eternity.
Just out of curiosity I've got a couple of questions.
1. Is what he said news to you?
2. As an exercise in creative writing, can you develop a workable rationale for what he said?
I find it a relief that two of my own teachers: HHDL and Mingyur Rinpoche have clearly expressed a view of Samaya that is significantly different, and which I find both more practical, rational, and which I have no trouble accepting. So at least I have Gurus whose explanation of samaya causes me no significant cognitive dissonance, and I can adopt their view without feeling I am going against Vajrayana Dharma.
I share a very similar sense of relief, and gratitude.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

chimechodra wrote:Malcolm, I was wondering, could you elaborate how this relates to the direct introduction Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives during retreats/webcasts and on transmission days? If I'm understanding correctly, as long as you follow along as best as you can, try to understand what the transmission is about by reading/studying before hand, and pay close attention, then everything is gravy and you've made a connection successfully enough to continue working with the transmission using the practice and advice of Rinpoche? Likewise, if you're someone who tuned into the transmission but have no idea what's going on, what's the point, etc., it would be similar to the discussion we're having here, that there's no real connection due to no real understanding?
I am not Malcolm, but I have never ever heard Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche say anything else on the subject.

In other words, whether it is a direct introduction au naturel, a donwang, a tsawang or any other wang of whatever stripe or colour -- as long as you are seriously interested, try to follow as best as you can, try to understand what the transmission is about (whether by reading beforehand or listening to Rinpoche), and try to pay attention to the best of your ability, then indeed all is and cannot but be fine and dandy, fullstop.

Honestly, I would not imagine it any other way. Empowerments are not intellectual games, perception tests or endurance feats; you do not have to be an acarya to receive one; the teachers who give them are not trying to outsmart their students-to-be.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Pero »

Grigoris wrote:
conebeckham wrote:A complex subject cannot be summed up in a quick quote. You should read the section called "the Ripening Empowerments" first, esp. ppgs. 17-27.
Well that just shattered any notion I ever had of receiving empowerment. On the basis of that text I probably haven't even consciously received a pubic hair from the butt of empowerment, let alone complete empowerment.
conebeckham wrote:Well, Greg, it should perhaps make everyone breathe a sigh of relief regarding samaya, eh? :shrug:

I really mean it when I say that we are all "aspirational" Vajrayana practitioners. I think there are some "real" Vajrayana practitioners, but I don't think they're going to be posting on Dharma Wheel, or Facebook, etc.

Someone once quipped "Making mistake after mistake, I walk the unmistaken path."

I will pray, now, that everyone is able to receive complete empowerment, consciously, and to have the means and ability to practice whatever methods to which they are most suited, as soon as possible.
Haha, according to that criteria it's quite possible no one here has actually received an empowerment in full, since for TNR, successfully completing the four empowerments means one becomes a siddha.

Does anyone today go about empowerments the way TNR described - months or years between vase and secret empowerment etc.?

BTW, reading TNR's quips, it seems 4 centuries ago they had the same issues we have today. :smile:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Pero »

In note 203 of The Treasury of Precious Qualities, volume 2, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche says:

"The criterion that determines whether or not the empowerment is truly received is the presence or absence of total confidence that the master giving the empowerment is one with the deity of the mandala. Even if, in a given situation, the disciples do not follow exactly all the details of the empowerment, if they have faith in the master and have fervent devotion, the empowerment is received."

I should also add that the lines this note is referring to are in this paragraph (p124):
"When the four empowerments, together with the consolidating conclusion are completed (203), the vows of the Vidyadharas are simultaneously received (204)."
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by kirtu »

pael wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Pael, you mentioned that you took Amitabha empowerment from Ch. Nhamkai Norbu. Why not practice Amitabha?
Kirt
I'm sorry if did express it unclearly, my native language isn't English. I received this from Tulku Dakpa. It was Amitayus from Konchog Chidu. Amitayus is Amitabha?
As noted Amitayus is the long life aspect of Amitabha.

If you like Amitayus then practice that. It doesn't matter really (as long as you've had an empowerment in that deity). The practice will eliminate obstacles to the experience of your wisdom mind.

But only practice it if you want to.
But, I thought Vajrasattva is needed to ensure pure samaya. Amitabha+Vajrasattva=2. Does practicing two prevent Sukhavati? Atisha didn't like practicing many.
Doing Vajrasattva purification isn't practicng two deities. There actually are other Vajrasattva practices that are complete deity yoga practices. Reciting the 100 syllable Vajrasattva mantra is the universal method of purification in Tibetan Vajrayana (note: there are other purification practices as well; the best known ones are Mahayana practices but in fact there are other Vajrayana purification practices).

Anyway, don't feel dissuaded by the course of the conversation *IF* you actually do want to practice Amitayus.

But if you decide not to practice then that's good too. It's up to you.

Kirt
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Dilgo Khentse wrote:"The criterion that determines whether or not the empowerment is truly received is the presence or absence of total confidence that the master giving the empowerment is one with the deity of the mandala. Even if, in a given situation, the disciples do not follow exactly all the details of the empowerment, if they have faith in the master and have fervent devotion, the empowerment is received."
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Lamas are not deity impresarios.
Impresarios? No.
Conduit? Eh, maybe.
Embodiment? Supposedly.
Sambogakaya Service Provider? Too cutesy.

How would you put it?
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
Then how about "temporary host"? :shrug:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote:
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
how does one go about making Buddha Mahavairocana one's guru without any human contact, or human guru?
It would seem like the best option , if it is available.
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
how does one go about making Buddha Mahavairocana one's guru without any human contact, or human guru?
It would seem like the best option , if it is available.
You can't.
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Minobu
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Re: Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote:
Minobu wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Everything is included in the guru — this is why one's choice of guru is so crucial, and why the importance of choosing a qualified one is paramount.
how does one go about making Buddha Mahavairocana one's guru without any human contact, or human guru?
It would seem like the best option , if it is available.
You can't.
why?
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