Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

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makewhisper
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Successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

Post by makewhisper » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:11 pm

[Topic split from Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations]
Malcolm wrote:These days, empowerments are handed out as a means of attracting followers to people who no idea what they are doing, even though sometimes they have been "following" Tibetan Buddhism for decades. How can one even imagine that any of these people have actually received samaya? It is only possible to believe this if one thinks that merely attending a ritual and repeating some words has the power to confer samaya. I don't believe this, but you are free to disagree.
Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?
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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:14 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Malcolm wrote:These days, empowerments are handed out as a means of attracting followers to people who no idea what they are doing, even though sometimes they have been "following" Tibetan Buddhism for decades. How can one even imagine that any of these people have actually received samaya? It is only possible to believe this if one thinks that merely attending a ritual and repeating some words has the power to confer samaya. I don't believe this, but you are free to disagree.
Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
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Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by makewhisper » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
makewhisper wrote:
Malcolm wrote:These days, empowerments are handed out as a means of attracting followers to people who no idea what they are doing, even though sometimes they have been "following" Tibetan Buddhism for decades. How can one even imagine that any of these people have actually received samaya? It is only possible to believe this if one thinks that merely attending a ritual and repeating some words has the power to confer samaya. I don't believe this, but you are free to disagree.
Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
As a neophyte, I'm not quite sure what this means.
ༀ་ཨཱཿ་ཧཱུྃ
Oṃ Āḥ Hūṃ
Om Ah Hung

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by pael » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:22 pm

Is it possible to know who has samaya and who hasn't?
How I can know did I receive samaya from initiation?
How can I know have I pure samaya or not?
I don't remember much about initiations in which I have participated.
I have not regular practice/Dharma group.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:26 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
makewhisper wrote:Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
As a neophyte, I'm not quite sure what this means.
From my personal point of view, it means that initially "tantric practitioners," sadhakas," whatever you call us, people newly involved with sadhana practice, are practicing in an aspirational, and not an actual, way, for all the talk about Pure Perception and View, etc. Over time, practice, Samaya, and understanding will become more clear, and eventually the student will become an "actual" Vajrayana practitioner. This is one reason why many sadhanas have "self empowerment" or "entering the mandala" and why practitioners will re-take the same empowerment numerous times, if possible.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:30 pm

makewhisper wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
makewhisper wrote:Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
As a neophyte, I'm not quite sure what this means.
It means you have to know what you are doing. You have to understand the Dharma. You have to examine the teacher. You have to understand the commitments you are taking on. For example, if you do not understand the commitments you are taking, you don't have samaya at all. It is really that simple.

If you do understand the commitments, you do know what you are doing, and so on, a teacher's conduct has to be pretty outrageously abusive before you can legitimately say, this teacher has broken samaya and now my commitment to him or her is null and void. If he or she likes fancy cars, too bad; if they like expensive food and wine; too bad. If they have a penchant for gold and silver, and insist that their students pay outrageous fees for teachings, too bad. If they like having multiple partners and are up front about it, too bad. If they are gay, too bad. If they are trans, too bad.

But if they systematically abuse their power, or are dishonest, or are physically and/or sexually abusive, well, then one might have a case that this teacher is bad news. Even here, it is best to just leave their company and move on. However, sometimes it is bad enough to warrant a public outing. In this case, don't worry about your samaya, your obligation to sentient beings is more important.
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Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by pael » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:48 pm

I want to know how deep I am in samaya. ChNN manifested sickness after I sent questions to him with e-mail on 11th of May 2017. Is this my fault?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:49 pm

pael wrote:I want to know how deep I am in samaya. ChNN manifested sickness after I sent questions to him with e-mail on 11th of May 2017. Is this my fault?

Oh lord, no. You should not think that way at all.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote: In short, people should consult the Rigpa Rangshar's chapter on samaya and cease laying blame on blameless students who have the misfortune of choosing mad guides.
Is there an existing English rendition of this chapter? If not, could you give a summary and at least a couple of relevant lines translated for us to consider? Otherwise it is simply not possible for non-lotsawas to consult with the text in a timely way regarding this issue. Thank you. :anjali:
Not sure if you missed this Malcolm, as you've been since active in the thread.. hope you'll consider helping us look into your reference. Thanks!
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:24 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Malcolm wrote: In short, people should consult the Rigpa Rangshar's chapter on samaya and cease laying blame on blameless students who have the misfortune of choosing mad guides.
Is there an existing English rendition of this chapter? If not, could you give a summary and at least a couple of relevant lines translated for us to consider? Otherwise it is simply not possible for non-lotsawas to consult with the text in a timely way regarding this issue. Thank you. :anjali:
Not sure if you missed this Malcolm, as you've been since active in the thread.. hope you'll consider helping us look into your reference. Thanks!

This is with respect to breaking the samayas of the body, from chapter 10 of the Rig pa rang shar:
  • If the master breaks samaya, there is no method of purification.
    Both master and disciple are born in the hell of great wailing.

    If the disciple breaks samaya, there is a method of purification.
    recite the vast discourses
    and turn the vast wheel of the ganacakra.
    It is also said that one should completely purify the three wheels.
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited, then these signs will be successfully averted.
Atikosha
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Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Grigoris
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Grigoris » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited, then these signs will be successfully averted.
Well, on the basis of this list either I have never received samaya, or my samaya are intact, coz none of that shit is happening to me! :tongue:
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
makewhisper wrote:
Malcolm wrote:These days, empowerments are handed out as a means of attracting followers to people who no idea what they are doing, even though sometimes they have been "following" Tibetan Buddhism for decades. How can one even imagine that any of these people have actually received samaya? It is only possible to believe this if one thinks that merely attending a ritual and repeating some words has the power to confer samaya. I don't believe this, but you are free to disagree.
Based on your study and practice, what conditions are necessary for a successful empowerment and conferral of samaya?

The student has to actually know what they are doing — this is the main criteria.
I have wondered if it is actually possible to fully break samaya. I don't think it is. I think probably any manifestation of such is actually enlightened activity disguised as non-enlightened activity, and if someone feels they are able to break samaya then they haven't actually understood it.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Minobu » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
This is with respect to breaking the samayas of the body, from chapter 10 of the Rig pa rang shar:
  • If the master breaks samaya, there is no method of purification.
    Both master and disciple are born in the hell of great wailing.

    If the disciple breaks samaya, there is a method of purification.
    recite the vast discourses
    and turn the vast wheel of the ganacakra.
    It is also said that one should completely purify the three wheels.
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited, then these signs will be successfully averted.
I was taught by a Gerlug Rinpoche that all these tantric vows we make in this life ,at the time of death, become a sort of null and void, and do not have any effect on future lives.

Is this true for all sects and do i have my teaching wrong?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:50 pm

Malcolm wrote: However, promising infernal consequences if someone busts a teacher purporting to teach Vajrayāna and give Vajrayāna teachings when they behave in a manner which proves they are not at all qualified to care for students is fundamentalism of the worst kind. I don't accept that, it does not make common sense, it is not just, it is not right, and should be protested vigorously.
IMO, this entire post of yours is excellent and I want to thank you strongly for sharing it. :anjali:

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Lhasa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:54 pm

ummm....what is samaya? In terms of 'knowing what we are doing,' what Are we doing?

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:59 pm

Lhasa wrote:ummm....what is samaya? In terms of 'knowing what we are doing,' what Are we doing?
Honestly? You cannot address this question on an internet forum.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Lhasa » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:11 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Lhasa wrote:ummm....what is samaya? In terms of 'knowing what we are doing,' what Are we doing?
Honestly? You cannot address this question on an internet forum.
Yes, honestly, some of us only have online teachers and no where to ask questions. All I've heard is Garchen Rinpoche say to keep your mind full of love, bodhicitta.

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Lhasa wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Lhasa wrote:ummm....what is samaya? In terms of 'knowing what we are doing,' what Are we doing?
Honestly? You cannot address this question on an internet forum.
Yes, honestly, some of us only have online teachers and no where to ask questions. All I've heard is Garchen Rinpoche say to keep your mind full of love, bodhicitta.

Alright.

I am going to say something that may make me unpopular, but if you've only taken teachings or "empowerments" on-line, I think there are no "classic" samayas. It is always good to maintain an attitude of Love, and compassion. I personally do not think full Vajrayana tranmission occurs except in "meat space." I am not saying on-line teachings are no good. But I don't think full samaya accompanies such teachings. I know this subject's been done to death, so I won't beat the dead horse.

If you want to understand classic "samaya," different classes of empowerments and different traditions have differing samayas. Get a copy of Jamgon Kongtrul's "Buddhist Ethics," or a commentary on Sakya Pandita's "Three Vows" for starters. but I honestly think this is a theoretical question for you......
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Malcolm » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:37 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Lhasa wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Honestly? You cannot address this question on an internet forum.
Yes, honestly, some of us only have online teachers and no where to ask questions. All I've heard is Garchen Rinpoche say to keep your mind full of love, bodhicitta.

Alright.

I am going to say something that may make me unpopular, but if you've only taken teachings or "empowerments" on-line, I think there are no "classic" samayas.
It is not going to make you unpopular, it just makes you wrong. Samayas in an empowerment come from reciting the vidyādhara vows, etc, after the Guru during the preliminary phase. If you think that the samayas did not take because you did not have a sip of samaya water after that recitation, well...
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Very sad news: Letter to Sogyal Rinpoche / Abuse allegations

Post by Adamantine » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Adamantine wrote:
Is there an existing English rendition of this chapter? If not, could you give a summary and at least a couple of relevant lines translated for us to consider? Otherwise it is simply not possible for non-lotsawas to consult with the text in a timely way regarding this issue. Thank you. :anjali:
Not sure if you missed this Malcolm, as you've been since active in the thread.. hope you'll consider helping us look into your reference. Thanks!

This is with respect to breaking the samayas of the body, from chapter 10 of the Rig pa rang shar:
  • If the master breaks samaya, there is no method of purification.
    Both master and disciple are born in the hell of great wailing.

    If the disciple breaks samaya, there is a method of purification.
    recite the vast discourses
    and turn the vast wheel of the ganacakra.
    It is also said that one should completely purify the three wheels.
It also gives warning signs that one has broken samaya:
  • These are the warning signs of broken samaya:
    various misfortunes arise,
    diseases are rampant and harmful,
    various contagious diseases occur,
    and there are also provocations and misguiders.
    If one is killed, one becomes a hell being.
    One’s eyes cannot see form.
    One cannot hear and one’s work cannot be done.
    Leprosy and blistering diseases arise.
    Thieves and royal punishments occur.
    One contracts contagious diseases others do not get.
    One’s sons and daughters die.
    The whole country arises as one’s enemy.
    One’s activities become completely pointless.
    When such warning signs arise,
    recite a confession as previously explained.
    If confessions are recited, then these signs will be successfully averted.
Thank you. To further clarify, there is nothing referring to
actual samaya being able or not being able to be conferred by unqualified or unrealized Gurus? It appeared you had indicated there were passages that covered that territory. And if not there, are there any authoritative texts that discuss this subtle but looming and important question. Because it seems there are a number of strong opinions that contradict by highly respected masters but with none of them citing any tantras.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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