Even those murders can actually attain enlightenment. For example, some former Khmer Rouge took robes and sincerely turned away from their sins.
Kirt
Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).
And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).
Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.
There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).
And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).
Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.
There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
What about Dzogchen? Or does it fall under Vajrayana in this regard?
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).
And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).
Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.
There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
What about Dzogchen? Or does it fall under Vajrayana in this regard?
One would have to have firm confidence in the first vision.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pmThere are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide. So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pmThere are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide. So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
ISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pmISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pmISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
I would. Karma is unerring.
You completely missed the point... I wouldn't bet on the fact that he understands that the Triple Gem is a flawless field. Actually I would stake all my cash on the fact that he doesn't.
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Grigoris wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 pm
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
I would. Karma is unerring.
You completely missed the point... I wouldn't bet on the fact that he understands that the Triple Gem is a flawless field. Actually I would stake all my cash on the fact that he doesn't.
He is educated monastic. Of course he understands this. It won't prevent him from birth in lower realms, given his purported actions, but it plants roots of virtue in his continuum nevertheless. People in Daesh hate the Triple Gem and would seek to destroy it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
People go through all sorts of levels of education without truly understanding the most basic things.
You have, for example, biological scientists that are also Creationists.
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Grigoris wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm
People go through all sorts of levels of education without truly understanding the most basic things.
You have, for example, biological scientists that are also Creationists.
I am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism. However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pmI am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism.
Yeah, well, I guess he must have skipped the classes on the Eightfold Noble Path then...
However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.
I didn't say anything about lower realms, you did. I asked:
So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pmI am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism.
Yeah, well, I guess he must have skipped the classes on the Eightfold Noble Path then...
However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.
I didn't say anything about lower realms, you did. I asked:
So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
You said:
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide
"My religion is not deceiving myself." Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss." The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
One thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.
In Kashmiri Shaivism I have seen it described as the union of consciousness and bliss, whereas in Buddhist tantra the union of bliss and emptiness is frequently mentioned.
Is this hair-splitting, or is the substitution of consciousness for emptiness a sign of a superior system?
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this?
srivijaya wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pmOne thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.
Kashmir Saiva posits a single universal established consciousness, whereas Buddhists posit infinite non-established consciousnesses. As such, their realisations and the fruit of those realisations are de facto different, and is far beyond philosophical hair-splitting, but is experientially different. In any case, traditional Kashmir Saiva is dead.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།། ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
srivijaya wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pmOne thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.
Kashmir Saiva posits a single universal established consciousness, whereas Buddhists posit infinite non-established consciousnesses. As such, their realisations and the fruit of those realisations are de facto different, and is far beyond philosophical hair-splitting, but is experientially different. In any case, traditional Kashmir Saiva is dead.
What Indian traditions are actually still extent? It seems a lot even those of the Six Orthodox schools like Samkhya and Nyaya seem to be gone.