The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:39 am

Sherab wrote:I don't know too but I have not read as yet the abandonment of all views in meditation in other religions other than in Buddhism although I think in Taoism there could be something similar but I am not sure.
Though I do wonder what complete surrender of the self to the Divine would be like. Maybe the experience would be the same but couched in different post-meditation terms?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:43 am

Sherab wrote:Yes, but they are technically Buddhist no?
No, they do not belong to any -ism as they are liberated under their own steam and have no followers (since they don't teach). So that means they don't belong to any specific club.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:If liberation is not connected with right view, then even people with wrong view (such as believing that killing sentient beings is a path of liberation) will attain liberation. I.e. liberation will have no cause, it will be random, and can arise in anyone at anytime.
Anyone can be liberated, because they all possess the "cause" for liberation: Tathagatagarbha.

Anyway, what I meant is that having (especially an intellectual grasp of) Right View doesn't not mean that one is liberated. Especially ifRight View becomes an object of grasping and identification (with a self).
The very fact that you put tathāgatagarbha in scare quotes shows that you recognize that it is merely a formal cause, not an efficient cause.

Mundane right view is necessary for realizing supramundane right view. This is the difference, for example, between the paths of accumulation and application (mundane right view) and the path of seeing (supramundane right view).

Right view cannot become an object of grasping to a self. It is automatically the recognition of the absence of the self of the person, at minimum.

Someone who has right view is automatically liberated, in comparison to someone who has wrong view. A person with wrong view will never achieve liberation for as long as they hold wrong views.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sherab wrote:Also, if liberation is possible in non-Buddhist Dharma, then in a kalpa where the Buddha Dharma is not present and a Buddha has yet to turn the wheel of Dharma, then liberation would be possible in such a kalpa. That would contradict what the Buddha taught.
It is possible. Pratyeka Buddhas do it.
Pratyekabuddhas are those who achieved the āryamarga in a past life under the teaching of a samyaksambuddha, and then in a future life, awaken on their own when there is no samyaksambuddha in the world.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Losal Samten » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:...
Do supreme nirmanakayas always teach both Hinayana and Mahayana dharma? Or sometimes one and not the other?
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:22 pm

Losal Samten wrote:
Malcolm wrote:...
Do supreme nirmanakayas always teach both Hinayana and Mahayana dharma? Or sometimes one and not the other?
They always teach the three yānas.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:Right view cannot become an object of grasping to a self. It is automatically the recognition of the absence of the self of the person, at minimum.

Someone who has right view is automatically liberated, in comparison to someone who has wrong view. A person with wrong view will never achieve liberation for as long as they hold wrong views.
Any idea can be an object of grasping and identification. An intellectual grasp of Right View is not a guarantee of liberation or freedom from attachment and aversion. Realisation though, that's a different story.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:Pratyekabuddhas are those who achieved the āryamarga in a past life under the teaching of a samyaksambuddha, and then in a future life, awaken on their own when there is no samyaksambuddha in the world.
Sure, but it doesn't make them Buddhists though, not in the way that we recognise the term.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by tiagolps » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Right view cannot become an object of grasping to a self. It is automatically the recognition of the absence of the self of the person, at minimum.

Someone who has right view is automatically liberated, in comparison to someone who has wrong view. A person with wrong view will never achieve liberation for as long as they hold wrong views.
Any idea can be an object of grasping and identification. An intellectual grasp of Right View is not a guarantee of liberation or freedom from attachment and aversion. Realisation though, that's a different story.
So, can a being attain realisation without right view? What do you list as the causes for realisation?
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Enjoy the domain of the tranquil nirvana.
Fully possessing the om and the soha,
You overcome even the greatest of evils.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:28 pm

tiagolps wrote:So, can a being attain realisation without right view?
I really don't know.
What do you list as the causes for realisation?
I don't. I just practice as I am taught and try to avoid judging other's spiritual capacity. "Try" being the key term here. :tongue: I will not make sweeping judgements of entire spiritual systems and their practitioners, but fall into the trap of judging particular (fake, according to my limited view) teachers.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by tiagolps » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:I really don't know.
Fair enough.
Homage to you, blissful, virtuous and peaceful,
Enjoy the domain of the tranquil nirvana.
Fully possessing the om and the soha,
You overcome even the greatest of evils.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:22 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Right view cannot become an object of grasping to a self. It is automatically the recognition of the absence of the self of the person, at minimum.

Someone who has right view is automatically liberated, in comparison to someone who has wrong view. A person with wrong view will never achieve liberation for as long as they hold wrong views.
Any idea can be an object of grasping and identification. An intellectual grasp of Right View is not a guarantee of liberation or freedom from attachment and aversion. Realisation though, that's a different story.

It states in sūtra:
  • They abide on this path
    though right view.
And:
  • Having fully understood wrong view,
    whoever conceives of right view
    they possess the Dharma.
And:
  • Those who possess right view,
    those people go to higher realms.
And:
  • Entering onto the plain of right view,
    the qualities of the buddhas will be increased with water,
    an excellent rain of flowers of buddhadharmas will fall...
The Prajñāpāramita states:
  • Whoever wishes to be established in right view, should train in the perfection of wisdom.
Ratnakuta states:
  • Right view is the abandonment of the view of that the aggregates are a self (satkāyadṛṣti).
Dharmakīrti states very clearly:
  • Well cultivated right view
    destroys craving and its companions.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:23 pm

I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that an intellectual understanding of Right View is not enough. Taking Right View as a mental object means that, like all mental objects, it can become yet another means of self identification: I have Right View, YOU do not have Right View. You see it happening all the time. For me, an intellectual understanding is not enough. Realisation through insight is essential.

As for this:
The very fact that you put tathāgatagarbha in scare quotes shows that you recognize that it is merely a formal cause, not an efficient cause.
I put "cause" in quotation marks because the Tathagatagarbha is not a cause. But I am sure that as an Acharya you are more than aware of this.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Sherab » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sherab wrote:I don't know too but I have not read as yet the abandonment of all views in meditation in other religions other than in Buddhism although I think in Taoism there could be something similar but I am not sure.
Though I do wonder what complete surrender of the self to the Divine would be like. Maybe the experience would be the same but couched in different post-meditation terms?
I think even a complete surrender of the self to the Divine would involve a grasping at a self and something Divine. Otherwise, there is nothing to surrender to and nothing to surrender to.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Sherab » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sherab wrote:Yes, but they are technically Buddhist no?
No, they do not belong to any -ism as they are liberated under their own steam and have no followers (since they don't teach). So that means they don't belong to any specific club.
As far as I am concerned, someone who follows the teachings and practices of the Buddha Dharma is a buddhist. That would include a pratyekabuddha.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:46 am

Grigoris wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that an intellectual understanding of Right View is not enough. Taking Right View as a mental object means that, like all mental objects, it can become yet another means of self identification: I have Right View, YOU do not have Right View. You see it happening all the time. For me, an intellectual understanding is not enough. Realisation through insight is essential.
Without an intellectual understanding of right view, realization through insight is impossible.
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Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that an intellectual understanding of Right View is not enough. Taking Right View as a mental object means that, like all mental objects, it can become yet another means of self identification: I have Right View, YOU do not have Right View. You see it happening all the time. For me, an intellectual understanding is not enough. Realisation through insight is essential.
Without an intellectual understanding of right view, realization through insight is impossible.
So what is the bare minimum for intellectual understanding of right view as Vajrayana practitioner? I'd presume it is not necessary to go "Full 9 yards" like the Gelug style.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:33 am

Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:I think you may be misunderstanding what I am saying: I am saying that an intellectual understanding of Right View is not enough. Taking Right View as a mental object means that, like all mental objects, it can become yet another means of self identification: I have Right View, YOU do not have Right View. You see it happening all the time. For me, an intellectual understanding is not enough. Realisation through insight is essential.
Without an intellectual understanding of right view, realization through insight is impossible.
I did not say an intellectual understanding is not necessary, I said it is not sufficient.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:36 am

Sherab wrote:I think even a complete surrender of the self to the Divine would involve a grasping at a self and something Divine. Otherwise, there is nothing to surrender to and nothing to surrender to.
With any practice, in the beginning, there is somebody doing something.

When I say a complete surrender, I mean complete. I mean there is no longer a dualistic relationship since self is totally abandoned.

Again though: How do we know if the apparent differences lie in post-experience explanations, or if there are actual differences?

We cannot really, can we?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Sherab » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:58 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sherab wrote:I think even a complete surrender of the self to the Divine would involve a grasping at a self and something Divine. Otherwise, there is nothing to surrender to and nothing to surrender to.
With any practice, in the beginning, there is somebody doing something.

When I say a complete surrender, I mean complete. I mean there is no longer a dualistic relationship since self is totally abandoned.

Again though: How do we know if the apparent differences lie in post-experience explanations, or if there are actual differences?

We cannot really, can we?
That was why I asked whether non-Buddhist system of practices actually teach the abandonment of all views (which logically should be at the end of the path). As I mentioned before, I don't think they do.

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