The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

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pael
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by pael » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:20 am

Malcolm wrote:even if one takes the bodhisattva vow with the intent to deceive, it still has such force that even Papayin Māra received a prediction for full buddhahood.
How about taking Vajrayana vow with the intent to deceive?
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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:04 am

Malcolm wrote:Some schools? Which schools? Can you name some for me?
Not really, no. "Some Zen schools" is the best I can do...
In fact it is the Lankāvatara which equates tathāgatagarbha with the ālayavijñāna, but not for the reason you present here.

According to this sūtra, tathāgatagarbha was taught in order to convert to Buddhadharma those immature people who were afraid of the teaching of selflessness. It also teaches that the tathāgatagarbha/ālayavijñāna is the cause of both kusala and akulsala, postive and negative actions. The sūtra says that while the tathāgatagarbha/ālayavijñāna is intrinsically pure, since it is afflicted with adventitious afflictions it appears as if it is impure. Finally, the Buddha's last statement about the tathāgatagarbha in the Lanka is that the tathāgatagarbha is the cause of both samsara and nirvana, as well as both happiness and suffering.
It seems to me that the Tathagatagarbha is the "cause" of Nirvana and samsara in the same way that the Dharmata or the gzhi is the cause of...
It really does not correspond with the picture you paint of the tathāgatagarbha being this engine of bodhi driving everyone to awakening regardless of their religious affiliation.
If the Tathagatagarbha is not the basis of liberation, then what is? Are you implying that not all sentient beings possess Tathagatagarbha? Only Buddhists? Only Buddhists have the ever-present potential for enlightenment?
Well, all I can say then is you seem not to understand the difference between following the Vajrayāna path and the common sūtra path.
I didn't know they were separate, I thought they were complimentary.
Those who have taken the bodhisattva vow are motivated by Mahāyāna bodhicitta. Otherwise they would not have not taken the vow. And lest, for example you complain that some people may take it without meaning it, the Surangama Samadhi Sūtra teaches that Māra tried to the deceive the Buddha by taking the bodhisattva vow; but guess what— even if one takes the bodhisattva vow with the intent to deceive, it still has such force that even Papayin Māra received a prediction for full buddhahood.

There are many people who practice Hinayāna who have no interest in Mahāyāna. But they too are generally motivated by love and compassion.
Is there a sentient being out there that will not achieve Buddhahood?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:08 pm

Grigoris wrote: It seems to me that the Tathagatagarbha is the "cause" of Nirvana and samsara in the same way that the Dharmata or the gzhi is the cause of...
In Dzogchen, the tathāgatagarbha is not the ālayavijñāna. The ālayavijñāna is a product of the delusion of the imputing ignorance. Tathāgatagarbha is the gzhi. When it is recognized, there is nirvana, when it is not recognized, there is samsara. Tathāgatagarbha does not prevent delusion nor does it stimulate awakening.

If the Tathagatagarbha is not the basis of liberation, then what is? Are you implying that not all sentient beings possess Tathagatagarbha? Only Buddhists? Only Buddhists have the ever-present potential for enlightenment?
The basis of liberation is right view. We have covered this already. The rest of your questions are inapplicable.

Well, all I can say then is you seem not to understand the difference between following the Vajrayāna path and the common sūtra path.
I didn't know they were separate, I thought they were complimentary.
They have the same goal. But the common sūtra path is for those of less capacity and intelligence who imagine it is necessary to practice in a very external way to gather the two accumulations. The Vajrayāna path is for those who are intelligent and highly motivated to attain buddhahood.

Is there a sentient being out there that will not achieve Buddhahood?

Madhyamaka categorically rejects the Yogacara doctrine of icchantikas, still they admit that there are some sentient beings who may never attain buddhahood.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by pael » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka categorically rejects the Yogacara doctrine of icchantikas, still they admit that there are some sentient beings who may never attain buddhahood.
Such as?
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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:14 pm

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka categorically rejects the Yogacara doctrine of icchantikas, still they admit that there are some sentient beings who may never attain buddhahood.
Such as?

Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by pael » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka categorically rejects the Yogacara doctrine of icchantikas, still they admit that there are some sentient beings who may never attain buddhahood.
Such as?

Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
Afflictions can be reduced?
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by smcj » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:05 pm

pael wrote: Afflictions can be reduced?
Afflictions can not only be reduced but also eliminated. That goes for both emotional and cognitive afflictions. Generally that is what Dharma practice is about. Once they are removed the Buddha Nature spontaneously expresses itself.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:In Dzogchen, the tathāgatagarbha is not the ālayavijñāna. The ālayavijñāna is a product of the delusion of the imputing ignorance. Tathāgatagarbha is the gzhi. When it is recognized, there is nirvana, when it is not recognized, there is samsara. Tathāgatagarbha does not prevent delusion nor does it stimulate awakening.
This is the Dzogchen view then. Fair enough.
The basis of liberation is right view.
I get your point now. Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:In Dzogchen, the tathāgatagarbha is not the ālayavijñāna. The ālayavijñāna is a product of the delusion of the imputing ignorance. Tathāgatagarbha is the gzhi. When it is recognized, there is nirvana, when it is not recognized, there is samsara. Tathāgatagarbha does not prevent delusion nor does it stimulate awakening.
This is the Dzogchen view then. Fair enough.
The basis of liberation is right view.
I get your point now. Thank you.
Phew! :applause:
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by pueraeternus » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Grigoris wrote:(On the basis of the Buddha's teaching in the Lankavatara Sutra)

Some schools equate the Tathagatagarbha with the Alayavijnana (which they claim is intrinsically pure) and thus the basis, or cause, of all wholesome actions.
Some schools? Which schools? Can you name some for me?
Not really, no. "Some Zen schools" is the best I can do...
The east asian schools generally refer to the Amalavijnana in this context, not the Alayavijnana.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by ItsRaining » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:02 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:35 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Some schools? Which schools? Can you name some for me?
Not really, no. "Some Zen schools" is the best I can do...
The east asian schools generally refer to the Amalavijnana in this context, not the Alayavijnana.
I don't think any schools accept a Amalavijnana anymore, most schools and texts associated with Paramantha fell out of popularity due to Xuang Zang's translations and some of his political maneuverings.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Varis » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:49 am

What I find most interesting about Sanderson's work is that it seems to be suggesting that many Buddhist practitioners were both Hindus and Buddhists but not in the manner of mixing these two traditions (with a few exceptions IMO, like Mahendranath who probably did mix the two traditions), but rather being outwardly Hindu and inwardly Buddhist, and maybe some of the opposite was happening as well. This of course would clear up why the 64 Mahasiddhas exist in both the Hindu and Buddhist tantric traditions.

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:59 am

pueraeternus wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:35 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Some schools? Which schools? Can you name some for me?
Not really, no. "Some Zen schools" is the best I can do...
The east asian schools generally refer to the Amalavijnana in this context, not the Alayavijnana.
Thank you for the correction. The important issue though is (regardless of the name) the idea that all wholesome actions of the three doors originate in a pure/pristine consciousness, which is identified as one's enlightened nature.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:37 pm

pael wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
pael wrote: Such as?

Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
Afflictions can be reduced?
Sure. Shamatha automatically reduces afflictions. Over time only the really strong ones (for you) remain strong and even they are dented.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:14 pm
pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Madhyamaka categorically rejects the Yogacara doctrine of icchantikas, still they admit that there are some sentient beings who may never attain buddhahood.
Such as?

Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
But to what extent is this valid in our time? Almost everyone has seen a picture of a stupa or a Buddha and therefore a seed has been planted.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:48 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The Buddha never taught anything that remotely resembles this.
(On the basis of the Buddha's teaching in the Lankavatara Sutra)

Some schools equate the Tathagatagarbha with the Alayavijnana (which they claim is intrinsically pure) and thus the basis, or cause, of all wholesome actions.
Some schools? Which schools? Can you name some for me?
Tathāgatagarbha = Alayavijñāna is the standard Soto Zen view.

And in fact it is understood that this is upaya as well.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:28 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:14 pm
pael wrote: Such as?

Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
But to what extent is this valid in our time? Almost everyone has seen a picture of a stupa or a Buddha and therefore a seed has been planted.

Kirt
Completely valid. Think ISIS.
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:28 pm
kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:14 pm



Such as some beings who are so contaminated by afflictions they will never get out of samsara even though everyone has the potential to become awakened.
But to what extent is this valid in our time? Almost everyone has seen a picture of a stupa or a Buddha and therefore a seed has been planted.

Kirt
Completely valid. Think ISIS.
Even those murders can actually attain enlightenment. For example, some former Khmer Rouge took robes and sincerely turned away from their sins.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:28 pm
kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:39 pm


But to what extent is this valid in our time? Almost everyone has seen a picture of a stupa or a Buddha and therefore a seed has been planted.

Kirt
Completely valid. Think ISIS.
Even those murders can actually attain enlightenment. For example, some former Khmer Rouge took robes and sincerely turned away from their sins.

Kirt
Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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kirtu
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by kirtu » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:28 pm


Completely valid. Think ISIS.
Even those murders can actually attain enlightenment. For example, some former Khmer Rouge took robes and sincerely turned away from their sins.

Kirt
Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).

And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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