The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm

kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:38 pm


Even those murders can actually attain enlightenment. For example, some former Khmer Rouge took robes and sincerely turned away from their sins.

Kirt
Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).

And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).

Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.

There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.

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Aryjna
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Aryjna » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:44 pm


Turning away from one's misdeeds is nice, but it does not place a stop order to going to hell for mass murdering people. You have to attain stream entry.
But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).

And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).

Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.

There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
What about Dzogchen? Or does it fall under Vajrayana in this regard?

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:42 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm
kirtu wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:55 pm


But turning away from ones misdeeds and then really cultivating merit in any of the three great lineages purifies even those misdeeds (of coruse merit itself creates the causes for positive experiences but the point is that one can continue to purify the karma even before Arya wisdom dawns).

And in the HYT a complete stop can be put to even these misdeeds (because the positive effect from HYT practice can overwhelm negative karma and indeed with the truly diligent negative karma of even the worst sort can be purified).

Kirt
The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving stream entry (Hinayāna) or patience on the path of application (Mahāyāna) or strong heat (Vajrayāna). With respect to patience, this takes many eons to reach on the common Mahāyāna path.

There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
What about Dzogchen? Or does it fall under Vajrayana in this regard?
One would have to have firm confidence in the first vision.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:42 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm
There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide. So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?

Image
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

pael
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by pael » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:26 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm


The only way to cut off rebirth in the three lowers realms is by achieving ... strong heat (Vajrayāna).
Is that same as tummo?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:42 am
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 10:58 pm
There are no other means. And when we are talking about people who hate the Dharma as much as ISIS people, it will be incalculable eons before they have cultivated a sufficient root of merit for meeting the Dharma.
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide. So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?

Image
ISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pm
ISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pm
ISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
I would. Karma is unerring.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:37 pm
ISIS, since even this fellow understands the Triple Gem is a flawless merit field.
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
I would. Karma is unerring.
You completely missed the point... I wouldn't bet on the fact that he understands that the Triple Gem is a flawless field. Actually I would stake all my cash on the fact that he doesn't.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:48 pm
Yes... Well... I wouldn't bet on it.
I would. Karma is unerring.
You completely missed the point... I wouldn't bet on the fact that he understands that the Triple Gem is a flawless field. Actually I would stake all my cash on the fact that he doesn't.
He is educated monastic. Of course he understands this. It won't prevent him from birth in lower realms, given his purported actions, but it plants roots of virtue in his continuum nevertheless. People in Daesh hate the Triple Gem and would seek to destroy it.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm

People go through all sorts of levels of education without truly understanding the most basic things.

You have, for example, biological scientists that are also Creationists.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm
People go through all sorts of levels of education without truly understanding the most basic things.

You have, for example, biological scientists that are also Creationists.
I am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism. However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm
I am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism.
Yeah, well, I guess he must have skipped the classes on the Eightfold Noble Path then...
However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.
I didn't say anything about lower realms, you did. I asked:
So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:32 pm
I am quite certain that man understands the basic principles of Buddhism.
Yeah, well, I guess he must have skipped the classes on the Eightfold Noble Path then...
However, one thing needs to be pointed out -- do you have actual evidence that he is deliberately incited groups of people to kill Muslims? If not, then all this talk his going to lower realms is just empty chatter.
I didn't say anything about lower realms, you did. I asked:
So who will spend more incalculable eons cultivating the root of merit for meeting the Dharma?
You said:
This guy claims he loves the Dharma and uses it to justify a genocide
.

Please provide proof of this claim.

Tolya M
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Tolya M » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:02 pm

There are very educated monks in Myanmar. Do not believe all that barking in the mass-media.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Grigoris » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:26 pm
Please provide proof of this claim.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... tred-burma
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Malcolm » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 6:26 pm
Please provide proof of this claim.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... tred-burma
This not proof that he is guilty of justifying a genocide, as you claimed. He is awful, no doubt. But let's keep to the facts.

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srivijaya
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by srivijaya » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm

One thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.

In Kashmiri Shaivism I have seen it described as the union of consciousness and bliss, whereas in Buddhist tantra the union of bliss and emptiness is frequently mentioned.

Is this hair-splitting, or is the substitution of consciousness for emptiness a sign of a superior system?

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this?

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Losal Samten
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by Losal Samten » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:10 am

srivijaya wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm
One thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.
Kashmir Saiva posits a single universal established consciousness, whereas Buddhists posit infinite non-established consciousnesses. As such, their realisations and the fruit of those realisations are de facto different, and is far beyond philosophical hair-splitting, but is experientially different. In any case, traditional Kashmir Saiva is dead.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

ItsRaining
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Re: The Tantric Age: A comparison of Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra

Post by ItsRaining » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:56 am

Losal Samten wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:10 am
srivijaya wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:11 pm
One thing which seems pertinent to the subject is the apparent difference between the stated endgames.
Kashmir Saiva posits a single universal established consciousness, whereas Buddhists posit infinite non-established consciousnesses. As such, their realisations and the fruit of those realisations are de facto different, and is far beyond philosophical hair-splitting, but is experientially different. In any case, traditional Kashmir Saiva is dead.
What Indian traditions are actually still extent? It seems a lot even those of the Six Orthodox schools like Samkhya and Nyaya seem to be gone.

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