Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

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emaho
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Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by emaho » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:31 am

Inspired by the discussion in this thread:

Nobody's perfect. Suppose you're testing a teacher and notice certain faults in his behaviour. Which kinds of faults of a teacher are harmless and which are actually "contaminating" the transmissions he could possibly give, so that it is not advisable to take initiations from him?

Are there objective rules or is it all just wishy-washy as in "if you see the teacher as perfect anything goes"?
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:44 am

"the guru drinks bourbon"

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Soma999 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:39 am

Everyone expect the teacher to be without the slightest fault, but who cares about being a good disciple/student ?

Certainly most of the time what contaminate an authentic transmission done by an authentic teacher is ourself.

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by DGA » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:07 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:44 am
"the guru drinks bourbon"
Not a problem.

But if "the guru drinks bourbon with cola," then a serious issue has emerged.

:cheers:

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Malcolm
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:31 pm

emaho wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:31 am
Inspired by the discussion in this thread:

Nobody's perfect. Suppose you're testing a teacher and notice certain faults in his behaviour. Which kinds of faults of a teacher are harmless and which are actually "contaminating" the transmissions he could possibly give, so that it is not advisable to take initiations from him?

Are there objective rules or is it all just wishy-washy as in "if you see the teacher as perfect anything goes"?
The rule is, if a teacher's faults outweigh their qualities by a large margin, then that is a teacher to avoid. If a teacher's qualities outweigh their faults by a large margin, then this is a teacher one might consider adopting. If a teacher's faults are in even proportion to their qualities, also this is a teacher to avoid.

If a teacher's activities are largely harmful to the Dharma, such a promulgating mistaken views and practices, engaging in political violence to subdue religious enemies, harming disciples through inappropriate actions and so on, then one can consider this person a mad guide, someone whose very lineage must be avoided.

For example, there was a conflict between the terton Nyima Drakpa and the Yonge Terton, Mingyur Dorje. To this day many Nyingmapas will not receive the transmission of any of Yonge Mingyur Dorje treasures. Likewise, many Kagyus avoid the transmission of Nyima Drakpa's transmission of the Karling Zhitro, etc. For many centuries, Ngorpas avoided receiving the transmission of Lamdre and Naro Khacho from the Tshar subschool, and so on. There are in Tibetan history many examples of this kind of thing.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Adamantine » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:31 pm
emaho wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:31 am
Inspired by the discussion in this thread:

Nobody's perfect. Suppose you're testing a teacher and notice certain faults in his behaviour. Which kinds of faults of a teacher are harmless and which are actually "contaminating" the transmissions he could possibly give, so that it is not advisable to take initiations from him?

Are there objective rules or is it all just wishy-washy as in "if you see the teacher as perfect anything goes"?
The rule is, if a teacher's faults outweigh their qualities by a large margin, then that is a teacher to avoid. If a teacher's qualities outweigh their faults by a large margin, then this is a teacher one might consider adopting. If a teacher's faults are in even proportion to their qualities, also this is a teacher to avoid.

If a teacher's activities are largely harmful to the Dharma, such a promulgating mistaken views and practices, engaging in political violence to subdue religious enemies, harming disciples through inappropriate actions and so on, then one can consider this person a mad guide, someone whose very lineage must be avoided.

For example, there was a conflict between the terton Nyima Drakpa and the Yonge Terton, Mingyur Dorje. To this day many Nyingmapas will not receive the transmission of any of Yonge Mingyur Dorje treasures. Likewise, many Kagyus avoid the transmission of Nyima Drakpa's transmission of the Karling Zhitro, etc. For many centuries, Ngorpas avoided receiving the transmission of Lamdre and Naro Khacho from the Tshar subschool, and so on. There are in Tibetan history many examples of this kind of thing.
Doesn't sound like any of those examples were of mad guides though... more like personal conflicts that became tribal/politically echoed by the disciples and their descendants?
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Jeff » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:28 pm

emaho wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:31 am
Inspired by the discussion in this thread:

Nobody's perfect. Suppose you're testing a teacher and notice certain faults in his behaviour. Which kinds of faults of a teacher are harmless and which are actually "contaminating" the transmissions he could possibly give, so that it is not advisable to take initiations from him?

Are there objective rules or is it all just wishy-washy as in "if you see the teacher as perfect anything goes"?
No teacher can really transmit beyond their own level of clarity. If you see faults (or attachments) in the behavior, you know what you are getting into.

Pick wisely, there is a major difference. Simply saying the same world or using the same rituals, does not mean it is the same thing.

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Virgo » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:58 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:18 pm

Doesn't sound like any of those examples were of mad guides though... more like personal conflicts that became tribal/politically echoed by the disciples and their descendants?
The point is dont break the samaya. Don't be a problem maker.

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by passel » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:30 pm

“No teacher can really transmit beyond their own level of clarity.”

Not sure if I quite agree. That would make for some short lineages if that were the case.
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:31 pm
For example, there was a conflict between the terton Nyima Drakpa and the Yonge Terton, Mingyur Dorje. To this day many Nyingmapas will not receive the transmission of any of Yonge Mingyur Dorje treasures. Likewise, many Kagyus avoid the transmission of Nyima Drakpa's transmission of the Karling Zhitro, etc.
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:31 pm
For example, there was a conflict between the terton Nyima Drakpa and the Yonge Terton, Mingyur Dorje. To this day many Nyingmapas will not receive the transmission of any of Yonge Mingyur Dorje treasures. Likewise, many Kagyus avoid the transmission of Nyima Drakpa's transmission of the Karling Zhitro, etc.
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:31 pm
For example, there was a conflict between the terton Nyima Drakpa and the Yonge Terton, Mingyur Dorje. To this day many Nyingmapas will not receive the transmission of any of Yonge Mingyur Dorje treasures. Likewise, many Kagyus avoid the transmission of Nyima Drakpa's transmission of the Karling Zhitro, etc.
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Yes, well, I am sure the followers of Mingyur Dorje would have a different opinion... But then that's the norm with religious schismatic conflicts. Everybody thinks they are correct.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Tiago Simões » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Yes, well, I am sure the followers of Mingyur Dorje would have a different opinion... But then that's the norm with religious schismatic conflicts. Everybody thinks they are correct.
Reminded me of this, except without the kissing.

Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by conebeckham » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:13 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Yes, well, I am sure the followers of Mingyur Dorje would have a different opinion... But then that's the norm with religious schismatic conflicts. Everybody thinks they are correct.
The short version of the story, if I recall, was that gov't. officials were harassing Yonge Mingyur Dorje, who wanted to meet Rigdzin Nyima Drakpa, and somehow Mingyur Dorje blamed Riddzin Nyima Drakpa for the harassment. This carried down through the Karma Kagyu, actually, to the point where Nyima Drakpa's termas were not included by Kongtrul in the Rinchen Terdzo. But KarLing ShiTro is popular in Karma Kagyu for sure, so it must be another lineage, I suppose.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by passel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:23 am

Dumb question but I’m assuming you guys mean the Palyul Mingyur Dorje who was the prodigy teacher/student to Karma Chagme?

(And is there a connection to the current Mingyur Rinpoche, or is that just a coincidence of names?)
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:48 am

passel wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:23 am
Dumb question but I’m assuming you guys mean the Palyul Mingyur Dorje who was the prodigy teacher/student to Karma Chagme?

(And is there a connection to the current Mingyur Rinpoche, or is that just a coincidence of names?)
No, Yonge Migyur Dorje, a Karma Kagyu terton with close ties to the tenth Karmapa. Yes, there is a connection with the present Migyur Rinpoche.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:56 pm
In which case both sides were following mad guides?
No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Yes, well, I am sure the followers of Mingyur Dorje would have a different opinion... But then that's the norm with religious schismatic conflicts. Everybody thinks they are correct.
Migyur Dorje is commonly referred to even by his followers as "Ternyon (gter smyon)," i.e., "the mad terton." His capacity for displaying irrational behavior is legendary.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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passel
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by passel » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:53 am

Huh. Then who modern day would represent the Nyima Drakpa folks? Anyone teaching the West?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by liuzg150181 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:07 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:51 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:09 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:36 pm


No, Nyingmapas who have an opinion about this generally feel that Migyur Dorje was the problem.

You can read about about this conflict in Brian Cuevas's book on Karling Shitro.
Yes, well, I am sure the followers of Mingyur Dorje would have a different opinion... But then that's the norm with religious schismatic conflicts. Everybody thinks they are correct.
Migyur Dorje is commonly referred to even by his followers as "Ternyon (gter smyon)," i.e., "the mad terton." His capacity for displaying irrational behavior is legendary.
Looks like Drukpa Kunley has met his match. :shock:
Though it is very hard to connect the present Mingyur Dorje Rinpoche to that of a "mad terton". :)

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Malcolm
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Re: Faults of the teacher - what does and what doesn't contaminate the transmission?

Post by Malcolm » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:26 am

passel wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:53 am
Huh. Then who modern day would represent the Nyima Drakpa folks? Anyone teaching the West?
I am not sure who transmits his termas, but his lineage of karling shitro is also widespread in Kathog and so on.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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