The DJKR Topic

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm »

PuerAzaelis wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:42 pm Maybe I can get people to bow to me too.
That depends on how good your line of bullshit is. It also depends on how much you really wish to cope with the neurosis and projections of your putative disciples, not to mention that you will have no time at all to deal with your own crap since you will be too busy engaged in a spiritual ponzi scheme.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I think we should backtrack a bit and consider a hypothetical situation where the lama in question really is a Buddha. Maybe we should take Padmasambhava as an example. In that scenario is it wrong to deify a human? He seems pretty deified to me in the Nyingma tradition.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:22 pm I think we should backtrack a bit and consider a hypothetical situation where the lama in question really is a Buddha. Maybe we should take Padmasambhava as an example. In that scenario is it wrong to deify a human? He seems pretty deified to me in the Nyingma tradition.
Yes, it is wrong to deify any human. Also buddhas are not human. Why? Buddhas are not sentient beings and are not subject to afflictions which cause birth as humans.

Padmasambhava is not a god, he is not a human, he does not belong to the three realms.
MalaBeads
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by MalaBeads »

Choose!

Who do you want to be? DJKR wants to have his cake seat it too! (He said as much in an article published long ago where he said he would not want to give up his "privileges" Also: he could have walked away from his "recognition as a tulku" (Jamgon Kontrul is doing exactly that and becoming a doctor).

These guys are ridiculous in my opinion. Choose a path and stay on it. Either be a guru for many or be a regular person who wants to have an ordinary sex-life full of hormones. If you are going to be a guru, prepare to make sacrifices.(there are different sacrfices to being an ordinary person.) Again: choose!

But please stop trying to have your cake and eat it too!
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:31 pm
smcj wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:22 pm I think we should backtrack a bit and consider a hypothetical situation where the lama in question really is a Buddha. Maybe we should take Padmasambhava as an example. In that scenario is it wrong to deify a human? He seems pretty deified to me in the Nyingma tradition.
Yes, it is wrong to deify any human.
Didn't Padmasambhava say that after he passed away that people could pray to him and he would be there?
Also buddhas are not human. Why? Buddhas are not sentient beings and are not subject to afflictions which cause birth as humans.
So you're saying that it is impossible to attain Buddhahood while still in human form?
Padmasambhava is not a god, he is not a human, he does not belong to the three realms.
He wasn't human?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:10 pm
Didn't Padmasambhava say that after he passed away that people could pray to him and he would be there?
Padmasambhava never passed away.
Also buddhas are not human. Why? Buddhas are not sentient beings and are not subject to afflictions which cause birth as humans.
So you're saying that it is impossible to attain Buddhahood while still in human form?
I never implied such a thing. But if you become a buddha, you are a buddha, not a human.
Padmasambhava is not a god, he is not a human, he does not belong to the three realms.
He wasn't human?
No buddha is human. It is a contradiction in terms.
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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by PuerAzaelis »

@MB

In the vajra world, no matter what you’re eating, it’s cake. There’s no need to “choose”, because there’s only ever one answer to any question. At the start, it’s the guru, in the middle, it’s the guru, at the end, it’s the guru.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Grigoris
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:25 pmNo buddha is human. It is a contradiction in terms.
Not even up to the point of his Parinirvana?
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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:22 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:25 pmNo buddha is human. It is a contradiction in terms.
Not even up to the point of his Parinirvana?
The Buddha displayed awakening under the bodhitree, but in actuality, buddhahood is achieved in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha according to Mahāyāna sūtra. And in the case of Śākyamuni, eons and eons ago.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

The Buddha displayed awakening under the bodhitree, but in actuality, buddhahood is achieved in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha according to Mahāyāna sūtra. And in the case of Śākyamuni, eons and eons ago.
So you're saying Sakyamuni was not human?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:00 pm
The Buddha displayed awakening under the bodhitree, but in actuality, buddhahood is achieved in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha according to Mahāyāna sūtra. And in the case of Śākyamuni, eons and eons ago.
So you're saying Sakyamuni was not human?

Correct, he was an emanation, not a human.
Norwegian
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:00 pm
smcj wrote: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:00 pm
The Buddha displayed awakening under the bodhitree, but in actuality, buddhahood is achieved in Akaniṣṭha Ghanavyuha according to Mahāyāna sūtra. And in the case of Śākyamuni, eons and eons ago.
So you're saying Sakyamuni was not human?

Correct, he was an emanation, not a human.
And he even says as much too:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Master, are you a deva?"

"No, brahman, I am not a deva."

"Are you a gandhabba?"

"No..."

"... a yakkha?"

"No..."

"... a human being?"

"No, brahman, I am not a human being."
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

ibid:

"Just like a red, blue, or white lotus — born in the water, grown in the water, rising up above the water — stands unsmeared by the water, in the same way I — born in the world, grown in the world, having overcome the world — live unsmeared by the world. Remember me, brahman, as 'awakened.'

Here Sakyamuni says he was born in the world and overcame it. So he startwd out human according to this passage. If I understand Malcolm's position correctly he is saying that his whole life from beginning to end was a show.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by pemachophel »

Yes, a show with 12 great acts.

BTW, it's all a show.
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KristenM
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by KristenM »

philji wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:39 pm I read it, thought it mildly amusing but was suprised how much effort went into putting it together.. Was it worth it...who knows? We don’t even know for sure that Rinpoche wrote it... but yes it has got everyone buzzing around with the loud noise of right and wrong once more.
seems like way too much effort went into it. even though it's supposedly meant as a joke, I'm thinking he might actually wish that this type of contract exists...for his sake.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

But if you become a buddha, you are a buddha, not a human.
But still in a human body.

If you want to define “human” as being in a state of unawareness I can accept that statement. I can also accept that “enlightened being” and “sentient being” are two completely different kinds of beings. However both can be in human form birthed by a human mother.

In sympathy with Malcolm’s position(s), the difference is great enough so that a Buddha’s existence falls outside of our normal ideas about what constitutes “human”.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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明安 Myoan
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by 明安 Myoan »

smcj wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:34 am
But if you become a buddha, you are a buddha, not a human.
But still in a human body.

If you want to define “human” as being in a state of unawareness I can accept that statement. But that’s just a semantics distinction.
To be born as a human is usually due to the karma of attachment and desire, isn't it? An emanation taking human form would do so out of bodhicitta and perfect skill in means. In that way, an important distinction exists between a nirmanakaya as a human body and an ordinary human being. It doesn't strike me as semantics.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

To be born as a human is usually due to the karma of attachment and desire, isn't it? An emanation taking human form would do so out of bodhicitta and perfect skill in means. In that way, an important distinction exists between a nirmanakaya as a human body and an ordinary human being. It doesn't strike me as semantics.
I was re-writing my post as you posted. So some of your points are covered there.

But in the case of someone like Milarepa, he attained Buddhahood while in a human body. I can’t source it, but I believe he made it an issue that he after he died he didn’t want people to interpret his life as being some sort of “appearance only”.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
MalaBeads
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by MalaBeads »

pemachophel wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:07 am Yes, a show with 12 great acts.

BTW, it's all a show.

LOL! 'Tis!

So choose your part and place well.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Adamantine »

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