The DJKR Topic

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:49 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:36 pm
Greg, I think you being deliberately obtuse.

Dzongsar posted something he thought was funny. Many, many women called him out for his "joke." You can argue about the merits of their discomfort if you like.
I am not talking about the merit or demerit of their actions, you are bringing this judgment into the discussion. I said that all instances of attraction and repulsion originate in a sense of self/ego. I don't see what is controversial about that.
It's beside the point.


You can claim that being subject to ongoing sexual harrassment for decades and years is just "ego" if one finds it uncomfortable and reacts with shock when a high lama argues that gurus have the right to disrespect their students in any capricious fashion they choose. But then you would be in the wrong.
You see, you are taking your assumption about the motivation for DJKR's post as the only correct assumption and thus you come to the mistaken conclusion that I believe that the abuse of students is correct and acceptable (something I have never said).
I did not say you did claim this, I said you can claim this. And if you did, you would be wrong.
Anyway, he removed the post. He was so pissed about taking it down, however, he complained about it during his recent teachings in Mexico City. Now, he takes this occasion, in announcing his teachings in Sikkim, to call out one of the leading western women teachers?
You do realise that he is quoting the aforementioned people? They actually said these things about him.
No, their statements concerened what he said. They were not statements about him as a person. They solely addressed the content of his joke. He made it about their persons. He is making it personal.
If he came here and read some of your statements about him, he could quite easily quote them back at you (in the same context as the above quotes),
You mean the words where I said that most of his post about Sogyal was bullshit and then diagramed the part that I agreed with? Please, let him. Because in reality, I have not said very much about Dzongsar at all.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:56 pm
You do realise that he is quoting the aforementioned people? They actually said these things about him. If he came here and read some of your statements about him, he could quite easily quote them back at you (in the same context as the above quotes), would you then feel outraged because he is quoting you, or would you feel that maybe you should have chosen your words more carefully?
So this might be true, that indeed the people he is quoting should've chosen their words more carefully...and this was the genius behind his supposed "critique", I guess it's possible, remotely.
Why should women who are offended at blatantly sexist humor "choose their words more carefully?" Let's look at what they said:

"disrespectful to women."

"disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny."

Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:58 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:56 pm
So that either means this is all some skillful means, or simply that he has his own cultural blinders that disallow him from even acknowledging a more egalitarian relationship with students, or *gasp* female students at that - even when possible abuse is involved.
Or both.
Cool, the next time I act like a shitty parent, friend, husband etc. and do something unproductive that just kind of pisses everyone else off I'll make sure to pen a snarky missive about how it's upaya wink-wink-nod-nod.

Parlor tricks.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:03 pm

And just to make things clear: I think it is admirable that distinguished women teachers are speaking out against abuse.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm
Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
An appeal to emotion by any chance? Give it a break dude. If you want to discuss things in a serious manner, then by all means...

Did I say something about histrionics before? I do believe I did!
Why should women who are offended at blatantly sexist humor "choose their words more carefully?" Let's look at what they said:

"disrespectful to women."

"disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny."
If you feel the characterisations are fitting, then don't go to his empowerment. Others will disagree with them . Others will not give a shit either way.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:56 pm
You do realise that he is quoting the aforementioned people? They actually said these things about him. If he came here and read some of your statements about him, he could quite easily quote them back at you (in the same context as the above quotes), would you then feel outraged because he is quoting you, or would you feel that maybe you should have chosen your words more carefully?
So this might be true, that indeed the people he is quoting should've chosen their words more carefully...and this was the genius behind his supposed "critique", I guess it's possible, remotely.
Why should women who are offended at blatantly sexist humor "choose their words more carefully?" Let's look at what they said:

"disrespectful to women."

"disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny."

Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
I wasn't endorsing it...I was saying the vague possibility is there, appropriate moral outrage is one thing, an efficacious response is another. Our culture is at peak outrage right now. I think DJKR is mostly in the wrong here, for the record.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:56 pm


So this might be true, that indeed the people he is quoting should've chosen their words more carefully...and this was the genius behind his supposed "critique", I guess it's possible, remotely.
Why should women who are offended at blatantly sexist humor "choose their words more carefully?" Let's look at what they said:

"disrespectful to women."

"disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny."

Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
I wasn't endorsing it...I was saying the vague possibility is there, outrage is one thing, an efficacious response is another. Our culture is at peak outrage right now. I think DJKR is mostly in the wrong here, for the record.

I don't see outrage in their words, I see simple, exhausted, disgust in the words of yet another patriarchal male complaining about how feminism is cramping his style. He might as well be on Fox News.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by jkarlins » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:20 pm

I'd watch that.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:27 pm

Quay wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:25 pm
TaTa wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:09 pm
Yeo, there has been a new post by DK which will probably add 12 more pages to this group
:tongue:

You mean this one?
There have been many inquiries about the upcoming Rigdzin Sogdrup and Dorje Nyingpo empowerments at Tashiding in West Sikkim on 16-22 November. Since those are treasure teachings in the Nyingma tradition revealed by Lhatsun Namkha Jigme, they are certainly tantric teachings.

Since these teachings will be conferred by a Tibetan “feudalist” who promotes “rape culture”, whom Loppon Yudron Wangmo considers to be “disrespectful to women”, and whom Lama Tsultrim Allione, founder of Tara Mandala finds “disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny,” I strongly urge you, for your own sake, not to come to Sikkim. As one author writes: These “lamaist teachings” are just “an androcentric, misogynistic cult, not a legitimate religion. Lama Dzongsar has just hammered another nail in their own coffins.”

In the words of author Ian Baker: “If enlightenment is arriving at a stranger’s door in a G-string and with a live fish protruding from your mouth, as Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche amusingly implies, maybe we are better off with the 18th century Western ‘Enlightenment’ that overthrew the tyranny of religious institutions and opened a new era of intellectual inquiry and scientific discovery.”

Discoveries which, I might add, have ushered in our present Golden Age of ecological, political and psychological glory in the west.
I
n sum, as these and many other notable commentators make clear, it is increasingly self-evident that tantric teachings are for backward, misogynist, male chauvinist, narrow-minded Tibetans, and I therefore strongly discourage people from attending the upcoming Sikkim teachings.

Aside from these important considerations, you should also know that west Sikkim is remote, hard to reach, and with minimal facilities, housing or amenities like medical care.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:58 pm
No, their statements concerened what he said. They were not statements about him as a person. They solely addressed the content of his joke. He made it about their persons.
You could argue that he is actually manipulating their words here -- to which he would probably retort: "Why can't you just relax, mate, and get the joke?" I think this is the scariest part of it all.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:30 pm

jkarlins wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:20 pm
I'd watch that.
No accounting for taste, I guess.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:08 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm


Why should women who are offended at blatantly sexist humor "choose their words more carefully?" Let's look at what they said:

"disrespectful to women."

"disgusting and disrespectful unfortunately not surprising and definitely not funny."

Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
I wasn't endorsing it...I was saying the vague possibility is there, outrage is one thing, an efficacious response is another. Our culture is at peak outrage right now. I think DJKR is mostly in the wrong here, for the record.

I don't see outrage in their words, I see simple, exhausted, disgust in the words of yet another patriarchal male complaining about how feminism is cramping his style. He might as well be on Fox News.
You can stop defending them now, since we're on the same side.

I think there are more layers to it than that, and I think a small part of his critique might be valid, in the right context. However, from my perspective since the first Sogyal letter he penned he's made an ass of himself, taken the pain of others lightly, and refuses to apologize for it. More importantly (to me at least) he has tried cover over his poorly chosen response by trotting out samaya and a (frankly) culturally bound notion of external Guru regard as if it's some reason to ignore abuse in the sangha, which really is pretty questionable behavior.

To me it ends there, abuse needs to be taken seriously, period. When your cultural upbringing or personal opposition to "liberal"values puts in you in a position to start victim blaming or engaging in cheap parlor tricks in order to avoid real dialogue, something is off. No amoun tof poorly executed ribald humor can fix that.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm

treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:58 pm
No, their statements concerened what he said. They were not statements about him as a person. They solely addressed the content of his joke. He made it about their persons.
You could argue that he is actually manipulating their words here -- to which he would probably retort: "Why can't you just relax, mate, and get the joke?" I think this is the scariest part of it all.
He is most definitely doing so.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Quay » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:29 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:58 pm
No, their statements concerened what he said. They were not statements about him as a person. They solely addressed the content of his joke. He made it about their persons.
You could argue that he is actually manipulating their words here -- to which he would probably retort: "Why can't you just relax, mate, and get the joke?" I think this is the scariest part of it all.
He is most definitely doing so.
When I find myself confused by someone's words, I fall back on an old editing tool and cut and paste those words into a text file without any attribution and forget about it for a bit. Then come back and just read the words as they are. Instructive in this case for me, as the plain English comes across to me as juvenile and petulant. Which does not seem to be the effect he's aiming for, especially in the hypocrisy of calling out other Lamas, something he's expressly disapproved of before.

And yes, all my projections, et.c., ad nauseam, but they're what I've got to work with and now that includes less of DJKR. YMMV.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:41 pm

Quay wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:31 pm
treehuggingoctopus wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:29 pm


You could argue that he is actually manipulating their words here -- to which he would probably retort: "Why can't you just relax, mate, and get the joke?" I think this is the scariest part of it all.
He is most definitely doing so.
When I find myself confused by someone's words, I fall back on an old editing tool and cut and paste those words into a text file without any attribution and forget about it for a bit. Then come back and just read the words as they are. Instructive in this case for me, as the plain English comes across to me as juvenile and petulant. Which does not seem to be the effect he's aiming for, especially in the hypocrisy of calling out other Lamas, something he's expressly disapproved of before.

And yes, all my projections, et.c., ad nauseam, but they're what I've got to work with and now that includes less of DJKR. YMMV.
:good:

It isn't just you getting the juvenile and petulant vibe, but that's a great technique, I will be stealing it.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by dzoki » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:52 pm

I find the whole situation of vajrayana in the West to be both tragical and hillarious. Guru Padmakara said, that master taking on disciples without checking whether they are suitable recipient of secrent mantra is like jumping of a cliff. Also in numerous texts it is said that the disciple should carefuly discern whether master is qualified or not. Yet Tibetan teachers do not bother to really check their disciples and Western disciples do not bother to check their masters. In the end things go south and a lot of finger pointing on both sides ensues.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:55 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:03 pm
Cool, the next time I act like a shitty parent, friend, husband etc. and do something unproductive that just kind of pisses everyone else off I'll make sure to pen a snarky missive about how it's upaya wink-wink-nod-nod.

Parlor tricks.
Nah, you need to be a recognised tulku and a member of Bhutanese royalty to pull that one off and still have somebody left that will love and respect you. :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:03 pm
And just to make things clear: I think it is admirable that distinguished women teachers are speaking out against abuse.
You could have led with that rather than running down the metadiscussion rabbit hole. Just sayin...
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:02 pm
Seriously, they should "choose their words" more carefully? Maybe they shouldn't have worn that skimpy dress when they were posting on facebook either.
An appeal to emotion by any chance?
I always find it interesting the way in which in our speech and culture, the disenfranchised are always the ones cautioned about being more careful with their words, their clothes, etc. I was not singling out JD in particular, but the way this way of speaking about people who are suffering systematic oppression are always the ones who are supposed to be more careful, less offensive, etc.
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:17 pm

dzoki wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 8:52 pm
I find the whole situation of vajrayana in the West to be both tragical and hillarious. Guru Padmakara said, that master taking on disciples without checking whether they are suitable recipient of secrent mantra is like jumping of a cliff. Also in numerous texts it is said that the disciple should carefuly discern whether master is qualified or not. Yet Tibetan teachers do not bother to really check their disciples and Western disciples do not bother to check their masters. In the end things go south and a lot of finger pointing on both sides ensues.
Vajrayāna and its teachers will have to adapt to the new, international circumstances in which it finds itself. Of course, given their penchant for following the dictates of the Communist Party, perhaps Chinese students will be more pliable to the dictates of "traditional" Tibetan gurus than we poor westerners who have been ruined by "Western Liberal Values" before we were ever born.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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