Vajrasattva More Effective?

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passel
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by passel » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:20 pm

^ right. How would you know it’s effective? By getting the kind of nyams you want? Like a vending machine?

I like HHDL’s general advice: “you should practice to the best of your ability, carefully investigating and adjusting as you go along. Then, if after ten or fifteen years it doesn’t seem to be working, you should change!”
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am

emaho wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:48 am
These, 28 long and 108 short don't seem to be enough.
Why are you thinking it isn't enough?

A lot of people think that when they practice Vajrasattva something extreme is going to happen. There are lots of stories, like "boah, dude, I just said one mala of Vajrasattva mantras and instantaneously my house burnt down, the next day my wife left me and the dog got run over by a car, boah dude, really heavy purification". And some people think if nothing dramatic happens they're not practicing right. But this is a misconception. This is something that teachers say very often: don't expect anything extraordinary to happen, just say the mantra and focus on the visualisation as good as you can and have confidence that it works. Don't be disappointed if your house doesn't burn down. (And don't leave candles unattended, either.)
Why on earth would I want my house to burn down? That makes no sense, but okay with those people. No, I only expect "feelings" in the mind, that's it as that's what happened on my first time on the sadhana(and usually the feeling in any Buddhist practice or teaching/doha, Christian scripture doesn't give this). The more mantras is just for more purification.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:31 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am
emaho wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:48 am
These, 28 long and 108 short don't seem to be enough.
Why are you thinking it isn't enough?

A lot of people think that when they practice Vajrasattva something extreme is going to happen. There are lots of stories, like "boah, dude, I just said one mala of Vajrasattva mantras and instantaneously my house burnt down, the next day my wife left me and the dog got run over by a car, boah dude, really heavy purification". And some people think if nothing dramatic happens they're not practicing right. But this is a misconception. This is something that teachers say very often: don't expect anything extraordinary to happen, just say the mantra and focus on the visualisation as good as you can and have confidence that it works. Don't be disappointed if your house doesn't burn down. (And don't leave candles unattended, either.)
Why on earth would I want my house to burn down? That makes no sense, but okay with those people. No, I only expect "feelings" in the mind, that's it as that's what happened on my first time on the sadhana(and usually the feeling in any Buddhist practice or teaching/doha, Christian scripture doesn't give this). The more mantras is just for more purification.
What he is saying is that Purification is supposed to bring negative karma to a head, so lots of people expect weird stuff to happen when they engage in it...but that that is not necessarily a realistic expectation.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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passel
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by passel » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:35 am

Pretty reasonable response from Tenma though, that’s funny
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:31 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am
emaho wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:29 pm


Why are you thinking it isn't enough?

A lot of people think that when they practice Vajrasattva something extreme is going to happen. There are lots of stories, like "boah, dude, I just said one mala of Vajrasattva mantras and instantaneously my house burnt down, the next day my wife left me and the dog got run over by a car, boah dude, really heavy purification". And some people think if nothing dramatic happens they're not practicing right. But this is a misconception. This is something that teachers say very often: don't expect anything extraordinary to happen, just say the mantra and focus on the visualisation as good as you can and have confidence that it works. Don't be disappointed if your house doesn't burn down. (And don't leave candles unattended, either.)
Why on earth would I want my house to burn down? That makes no sense, but okay with those people. No, I only expect "feelings" in the mind, that's it as that's what happened on my first time on the sadhana(and usually the feeling in any Buddhist practice or teaching/doha, Christian scripture doesn't give this). The more mantras is just for more purification.
What he is saying is that Purification is supposed to bring negative karma to a head, so lots of people expect weird stuff to happen when they engage in it...but that that is not necessarily a realistic expectation.
The rising is negative karma?
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:58 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:31 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am


Why on earth would I want my house to burn down? That makes no sense, but okay with those people. No, I only expect "feelings" in the mind, that's it as that's what happened on my first time on the sadhana(and usually the feeling in any Buddhist practice or teaching/doha, Christian scripture doesn't give this). The more mantras is just for more purification.
What he is saying is that Purification is supposed to bring negative karma to a head, so lots of people expect weird stuff to happen when they engage in it...but that that is not necessarily a realistic expectation.
The rising is negative karma?

Yes, in the Mahayana (as opposed to Hinayana where view of karmic fruit is fixed) you can actually lessen the effects of negative karma through practice, so one explanation I've heard is that negative karma is ripening, but possibly none of what is ripening is as bad as what could've been.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:58 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:31 am


What he is saying is that Purification is supposed to bring negative karma to a head, so lots of people expect weird stuff to happen when they engage in it...but that that is not necessarily a realistic expectation.
The rising is negative karma?

Yes, in the Mahayana (as opposed to Hinayana where view of karmic fruit is fixed) you can actually lessen the effects of negative karma through practice, so one explanation I've heard is that negative karma is ripening, but possibly none of what is ripening is as bad as what could've been.
Then what does little or no feeling mean? No karma?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Soma999 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:13 am

Purification in fact bring many good things, not only for your practice but also for your life. It can help healing, it can unlock situation...

But i would advise you to keep practicing and integrating also in your life the effects induced by your practice.

For exemple, learning to transform anger, dissolving your fear, transforming your habits... that's also purification.
Letting consciousness grow, having more genuine interest in others, that's also a result of purification.

It's not just chanting mantra, but also transforming your life with the teachings, to let consciousness grow.

The rythmn is yours also. It's not a magical stuff, like i chant a mantra and that's it. You have to integrate in your life the process.

You want more power ? Then concentrate on boddicitta, and during your life integrate spiritual teaching, and live with more consciousness. That's also why a spiritual teacher may be useful.

One time i asked a guru "why don't you take away all the negativity at once ?" The result was i would not handle it. Then someone came and told me about how she reacted to very strong and deep purification, i won't detail, and i understood it's very advisable to take time to integrate...

If just mantra chanting were enough, those who did strong accumulations of Vajrasattva would bu pure sattvic person, and sometime it's quiet different... so clearly something must have lacked.

Without integration, without love which grow, all meditation is just a waste of time.

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Vasana » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:22 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:58 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 am

The rising is negative karma?

Yes, in the Mahayana (as opposed to Hinayana where view of karmic fruit is fixed) you can actually lessen the effects of negative karma through practice, so one explanation I've heard is that negative karma is ripening, but possibly none of what is ripening is as bad as what could've been.
Then what does little or no feeling mean? No karma?
Nope. Feeling numb is not the same as having or producing no new karma. Feeling numb is often tinged with things like sadness, hope, fear and dullness so it's not a karmically neutral cause or effect. Even if the numbness is from meds or something else, it's still likely accompanied by the ignorance and afflictions that distinguish a non realized being from a realized one.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by emaho » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:40 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am
Why on earth would I want my house to burn down? That makes no sense, but okay with those people.
When I said "Don't be disappointed when your house does not burn down" I was of course joking. This was a friendly spirited caricature of what some people expect when they hear all these stories people tell about Vajrasattva and purification. Vajrasattva can have that effect of turning your life upside down, but that is only what happens in some extreme cases, it doesn't have to be that way. It can also go very smoothly.
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:25 am
No, I only expect "feelings" in the mind, that's it as that's what happened on my first time on the sadhana(and usually the feeling in any Buddhist practice or teaching/doha, Christian scripture doesn't give this). The more mantras is just for more purification.
Feelings of bliss can occur, but they're not what meditation is about; and if they don't occur it doesn't mean that your meditation isn't working. They're just experiences. The Tibetan word is nyams, normally in the scriptures they're grouped into three classes of experiences which can occur during meditation: bliss, clarity and nonthought (Tibetan bde, gsal, and mi rtog pa).

Here's from an article in the Rigpa Wiki: Three experiences
In one way these are very good experiences, and signs of progress in meditation.

For when you experience bliss, it’s a sign that desire has temporarily dissolved.
When you experience real clarity, it’s a sign that aggression has temporarily ceased.
When you experience a state of absence of thought, it’s a sign that your ignorance has temporarily died.

By themselves they are good experiences, but if you get attached to them they become obstacles.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:23 pm

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 am
Then what does little or no feeling mean? No karma?
Why do you practice?
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:08 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:23 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 am
Then what does little or no feeling mean? No karma?
Why do you practice?
It happens sometimes, not too much. Usually the bliss part can range from little to a lot.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:02 pm

I mean what motivaes you to do these practices? Knowing what your mindset is might help others answer.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:07 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:02 pm
I mean what motivaes you to do these practices? Knowing what your mindset is might help others answer.
To help clear obstacles caused by karma to Nirvana for all sentient beings along with help making the Saraswati practice I practice daily more effective not only for me, but the school and all sentient beings to be free of ignorance or how I say in the dedication part, May all sentient beings become wisdom, live, and beauty, May Buddhahood blossom in the heart of all beings. Also to help on the path towards healing as a surgeon(so 21 praises daily, Orgyen Menos is weekly and Yuthok prayer daily, mantra only when I have the opportunity to receive empowerment).
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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:15 pm

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:07 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:02 pm
I mean what motivaes you to do these practices? Knowing what your mindset is might help others answer.
To help clear obstacles caused by karma to Nirvana for all sentient beings along with help making the Saraswati practice I practice daily more effective not only for me, but the school and all sentient beings to be free of ignorance or how I say in the dedication part, May all sentient beings become wisdom, live, and beauty, May Buddhahood blossom in the heart of all beings. Also to help on the path towards healing as a surgeon(so 21 praises daily, Orgyen Menos is weekly and Yuthok prayer daily, mantra only when I have the opportunity to receive empowerment).
If obstacles are caused by karma, what causes karma?
And what would you say is the relationship between karma and nirvana?
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:09 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:15 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:07 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:02 pm
I mean what motivaes you to do these practices? Knowing what your mindset is might help others answer.
To help clear obstacles caused by karma to Nirvana for all sentient beings along with help making the Saraswati practice I practice daily more effective not only for me, but the school and all sentient beings to be free of ignorance or how I say in the dedication part, May all sentient beings become wisdom, live, and beauty, May Buddhahood blossom in the heart of all beings. Also to help on the path towards healing as a surgeon(so 21 praises daily, Orgyen Menos is weekly and Yuthok prayer daily, mantra only when I have the opportunity to receive empowerment).
If obstacles are caused by karma, what causes karma?
And what would you say is the relationship between karma and nirvana?
Karma is simply caused by our actions, so I try my best to remember all my sins. Nirvana is simply a state of realization that frees one from karma. Ignorance is simply an obstacle of karma, so the purification helps remove this in order to realize.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:12 am

Three follow-up questions :smile:

1. If karma is caused by actions, is there a difference between a child holding up a leaf and a buddha holding up a leaf?
2. If actions lead to karma, and karma obstructs nirvana, what was the status of Shakyamuni Buddha while he taught for 40 years?
3. What does purification do, in simple terms?
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Tenma » Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:39 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:12 am
Three follow-up questions :smile:

1. If karma is caused by actions, is there a difference between a child holding up a leaf and a buddha holding up a leaf?
2. If actions lead to karma, and karma obstructs nirvana, what was the status of Shakyamuni Buddha while he taught for 40 years?
3. What does purification do, in simple terms?
1. Doesn't seem like a difference.
2. I mean like killing beings and similar actions like that.
3. Purify this.
In reality, Je ne sais pas!
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:14 am

Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:08 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:58 am
Tenma wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:49 am

The rising is negative karma?

Yes, in the Mahayana (as opposed to Hinayana where view of karmic fruit is fixed) you can actually lessen the effects of negative karma through practice, so one explanation I've heard is that negative karma is ripening, but possibly none of what is ripening is as bad as what could've been.
Then what does little or no feeling mean? No karma?
Maybe nothing, only enlightened beings can see everyone's causes and conditions, you can't tell one way or another whether purification is going on if there are no signs, you just have to trust in the practice and in your teacher, the Dharma, etc.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Vajrasattva More Effective?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:21 am

Tenma wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:39 am
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:12 am
Three follow-up questions :smile:

1. If karma is caused by actions, is there a difference between a child holding up a leaf and a buddha holding up a leaf?
2. If actions lead to karma, and karma obstructs nirvana, what was the status of Shakyamuni Buddha while he taught for 40 years?
3. What does purification do, in simple terms?
1. Doesn't seem like a difference.
2. I mean like killing beings and similar actions like that.
3. Purify this.
In reality, Je ne sais pas!
Hi again, Tenma. Thanks for following along with me :smile:

1. If we say one action makes one kind of karma regardless of intent, why would we need to cultivate bodhicitta or learn what Right View is? We could go through the motions and attain awakening that way.
This is why "belief in rites and rituals" is called a fetter in Buddhism: intent relates intimately to karma and the result. The leaf example was just a play on the Flower Sermon, where the Buddha awakens a follower by holding up a flower.

2. Nirvana is beyond samsara and therefore beyond karma, both negative and positive. Why positive too? Because that only leads to birth in the god realms, and gods eventually die and fall back into lower birth like us.
How positive karma can help is by leading to this precious human birth, an encounter with the Dharma, and the inclination to have faith in it. Engaging in good deeds also soothes and delights sentient beings, making them more receptive to the Dharma as well.
My point is there's a danger in thinking Nirvana is conditioned in any way, even by good karma. "Obstructed" isn't a bad word, just maybe a bit too much like a concrete roadblock and less like an illusion or dream, which are other terms frequently used for our afflictions.

3. I swear I'm not picking on you :smile: What gets purified and how does it become so through the practice?
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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