Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm
You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.
A rose by any other name...
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:29 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm
You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.
A rose by any other name...
And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues.
Maybe in this lifetime, but the karmic imprint would...
The karma from their actions assures their birth in hell realms anyway.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by conebeckham » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm
You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.
A rose by any other name...
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
Just for clarity, you're talking about "Drelwa" as found in many terma tsok practices, yes?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Mantrik
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm
Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.

And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues. As it is, those people are going to spend eons in lower realms for their crimes against sentient beings.
Yes, it seems your comment about lower activities was somehow misinterpreted as killing outside of the context of compassionate liberation.

The interpretation of the Tantric Vows I referred to also seem to me to be expressing a duty to liberate such beings.
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
I understand this my dear Malcolm, but what we are actually talking about ('ccept in the case of Guru Rinpoche, maybe) is Military personnel dropping bones from drones on unknown people that look like ISIS members. Now if you consider that "liberation", well, then it seems you have strange ideas about tantric practice. Now if it was Guru Rinpoche manning the drones I might say okay, it would still kind of freak me out, but...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
I understand this my dear Malcolm, but what we are actually talking about ('ccept in the case of Guru Rinpoche, maybe) is Military personnel dropping bones from drones on unknown people that look like ISIS members. Now if you consider that "liberation", well, then it seems you have strange ideas about tantric practice. Now if it was Guru Rinpoche manning the drones I might say okay, it would still kind of freak me out, but...
I don't see any reason why they all shouldn't be executed. Why? Because they are actually wicked. There are not that many people in the world that I think of as being wicked through and through. Daesh fits the bill.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
I understand this my dear Malcolm, but what we are actually talking about ('ccept in the case of Guru Rinpoche, maybe) is Military personnel dropping bones from drones on unknown people that look like ISIS members. Now if you consider that "liberation", well, then it seems you have strange ideas about tantric practice. Now if it was Guru Rinpoche manning the drones I might say okay, it would still kind of freak me out, but...

No, that's what YOU are talking about. The rest of us were referring to those at the Daesh core committed to murdering people and so suitable for liberation. You either don't understand or are being deliberately obtuse.
Last edited by Mantrik on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:27 pm
No, liberation is a kind of wrathful phowa, actually.
I understand this my dear Malcolm, but what we are actually talking about ('ccept in the case of Guru Rinpoche, maybe) is Military personnel dropping bones from drones on unknown people that look like ISIS members. Now if you consider that "liberation", well, then it seems you have strange ideas about tantric practice. Now if it was Guru Rinpoche manning the drones I might say okay, it would still kind of freak me out, but...
I don't see any reason why they all shouldn't be executed.
Note Greg's phrases 'unknown' and 'look like'. Guess you fell into the trap he set. (Originally you were referring to Daesh who were committed to killing, not random people fleeing a conflict zone. )
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:50 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:35 pm
I understand this my dear Malcolm, but what we are actually talking about ('ccept in the case of Guru Rinpoche, maybe) is Military personnel dropping bones from drones on unknown people that look like ISIS members. Now if you consider that "liberation", well, then it seems you have strange ideas about tantric practice. Now if it was Guru Rinpoche manning the drones I might say okay, it would still kind of freak me out, but...
I don't see any reason why they all shouldn't be executed.
Note Greg's phrases 'unknown' and 'look like'. Guess you fell into the trap he set. (Originally you were referring to Daesh who were committed to killing, not random people fleeing a conflict zone. )
I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm

I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
So, you include everyone in the organisation - the kid who makes their meals, a jihadi bride who is proudly supporting her spouse, a fool jihadi from the US who is ideological but totally unable to be a combatant?

In terms of suitability for liberation, just how close do we need to be to the ones who are plotting and executing the killings?
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm
I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
It was not a trap, not intentional anyway... The reality is that from a drone the closest you'll get to knowing if somebody is a member of ISIS is if you see somebody with an assault rifle, a beard and a turban. In rural Syria that is about 80% of the adult male population.

AND I am not only doubting that all ISIS members are suitable objects for liberation, I am also doubting whether the subjects that are doing the liberating are suitable too. It seems to me that by agreeing to drone strikes you are setting up drone operators for rebirth in the three lower realms; since their motivation is unlikely to be bodhicitta and they will not be engaging in the correct practices when blowing people into tiny pieces. They will just be commiting plain and ordinary murder.

So it is my opinion that your view is completely mistaken and lacking in compassion, as it is setting up the causes and conditions for both the subjects and objects of the actions, to experience horrendous future suffering.
Last edited by Grigoris on Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm

I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
So, you include everyone in the organisation - the kid who makes their meals, a jihadi bride who is proudly supporting her spouse, a fool jihadi from the US who is ideological but totally unable to be a combatant?

In terms of suitability for liberation, just how close do we need to be to the ones who are plotting and executing the killings?
Jesus, you are not paying attention. I was talking about, and am only talking about Daesh fighters. The rest of them need to be interviewed and observed, incarcerated if need be, depending on how committed to this perverted ideology they are.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 pm
So, you include everyone in the organisation - the kid who makes their meals, a jihadi bride who is proudly supporting her spouse, a fool jihadi from the US who is ideological but totally unable to be a combatant?

In terms of suitability for liberation, just how close do we need to be to the ones who are plotting and executing the killings?
And who and how does one need to be doing the killing, in order for it to qualify as liberation?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:26 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm
I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
It was not a trap, not intentional anyway... The reality is that from a drone the closest you'll get to knowing if somebody is a member of ISIS is if you see somebody with an assault rifle, a beard and a turban. In rural Syria that is about 80% of the adult male population.

AND I am not only doubting if all ISIS members are suitable objects for liberation, I am also doubting whether the subjects that are liberating are suitable too. It seems to me that by agreeing to drone strikes you are setting up drone operators for rebirth in the three lower realms; since their motivation is unlikely to be bodhicitta and they will not be engaging in the correct practices when blowing people into tiny pieces. They will just be commiting plain and ordinary murder.

So it is my opinion that your view is completely mistaken and lacking in compassion, as it is setting up the causes and conditions for both the subjects and objects of the actions, to experience horrendous future suffering.

My friend, you introduced all these elaborate conditions. I don't think the US or Europe needs to be involved in these operations directly. I think the Iraqis, Kurds, and Syrians are doing an adequate job of cleaning out Daesh from Iraq and Syria. But they are not going to be able to sit back. We will all have to be vigilant for the next 100 years to make sure this kind of poison does not spread again.

I have compassion for Daesh. But I don't think there is any else to do. They are like rabid dogs. They need to be put down, just like any other animal with rabies.
Last edited by Malcolm on Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 pm
So, you include everyone in the organisation - the kid who makes their meals, a jihadi bride who is proudly supporting her spouse, a fool jihadi from the US who is ideological but totally unable to be a combatant?

In terms of suitability for liberation, just how close do we need to be to the ones who are plotting and executing the killings?
And who and how does one need to be doing the killing, in order for it to qualify as liberation?
In this case, if they are stopped, they are prevented from engaging in more nonvirtuous deeds and harming more sentient beings. That is liberation enough.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Mantrik » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:23 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:02 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:56 pm

I did not fall into any trap. I am still referring Daesh and only Daesh.
So, you include everyone in the organisation - the kid who makes their meals, a jihadi bride who is proudly supporting her spouse, a fool jihadi from the US who is ideological but totally unable to be a combatant?

In terms of suitability for liberation, just how close do we need to be to the ones who are plotting and executing the killings?
Jesus, you are not paying attention. I was talking about, and am only talking about Daesh fighters. The rest of them need to be interviewed and observed, incarcerated if need be, depending on how committed to this perverted ideology they are.
Thanks for the clarification. I don't recall you being that explicit, so apologies if I missed it.
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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:26 pm
My friend, you introduced all these elaborate conditions.
They are not elaborate conditions, they are reality. Unfortunately reality is somewhat more complicated than you seem to make it out.
I don't think the US or Europe needs to be involved in these operations directly. I think the Iraqis, Kurds, and Syrians are doing an adequate job of cleaning out Daesh from Iraq and Syria.
The U$ and Russia have not been directly involved, Syria is a proxy war. The U$ back the Kurds, the Turks (jointly with the EU) and the FSA (and ISIS and Al Nusra indirectly through Saudi Arabia) and Russia backs the Syrian state army. There is no adequate job being done by anybody about anything. It is dog-eat-dog. The fight against ISIS is not even over yet and alliances have already shifted, with the Kurds on the receiving end of the stick (once again).
We will all have to be vigilant for the next 100 years to make sure this kind of poison does not spread again.
We made the poison. The trial run was in Afghanistan and now it is almost perfected in Syria and Iraq. We sold the poison. We profited from the sale. We are not going to stop it spreading.
I have compassion for Daesh. But I don't think there is any else to do. They are like rabid dogs. They need to be put down, just like any other animal with rabies.
I have no love for Daesh, but you are seriously oversimplifying the problem. I deal, on a daily basis, with people that have been captured and tortured by ISIS AND the Syrian state. They start off being captured and tortured by one group and after their escape they fall into the hands of the other. Or they are traded as captives between any of the number of smaller groups (both Islamicist and not) that exist in Syria.

You get rid of ISIS and something else will grow to take it's place. Guaranteed. Unless you deal with the root of the problem.

Drone bombing does not deal with the root of the problem.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:47 pm
You get rid of ISIS and something else will grow to take it's place. Guaranteed. Unless you deal with the root of the problem.
Absolutely. And the new Evil Guys will do their best to outdo the Daesh in this respect. Terror is the terrorist's currency.
. . . there they saw a rock! But it wasn't a rock . . .

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:47 pm
You get rid of ISIS and something else will grow to take it's place. Guaranteed. Unless you deal with the root of the problem.

Drone bombing does not deal with the root of the problem.
What is the root of the problem?

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Re: Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:08 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:45 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:47 pm
You get rid of ISIS and something else will grow to take it's place. Guaranteed. Unless you deal with the root of the problem.

Drone bombing does not deal with the root of the problem.
What is the root of the problem?
Some people do not understand that some infections, like gangrene, just need to be cut out. Then you treat rest of the patient's body with appropriate remedies.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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