Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

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Tenma
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Tantric Liberation, Padmasambhava and Bonpos, etc.

Post by Tenma » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:50 pm

Mod note: topic split from The DJKR Topic


Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:49 pm
smcj wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:24 am
Before I go any further I think that I need to make it clear I'm an enthusiastic supporter of Minyur R. and HHDL's position on abuse by gurus. Nothing I say should be interpreted to mean that I think somebody should stay in an unhealthy situation. The current discussion I'm trying to have with Malcolm is about the theoretical framework for guru yoga. That framework is designed around the ideal scenario where you guru actually is an enlightened Buddha.

Evidently there was a time when that was reliably the case.
I do not think this is a wise assumption.


Obviously these days those kinds of gurus are few and far between, if they have continued to exist at all.


It is the case that, as the Hevajra commentary Padmini cites the Approach to the Utimate:
Because of the power of the Kaliyuga, gurus have mixed qualities and faults,
there are none at all without misdeeds;
disciples should rely on those
whose qualities predominate, and who have been thoroughly investigated.



Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:34 am


No need for a citation. If you think you should have pure perception of a criminal guru like the one I mentioned (i.e. murderer, rapist, pedophile, et al.) you are an idiot. Anyone who encourages you to think so is an idiot. Anyone who agrees with them is an idiot.
...in your opinion.
Not just in my opinion. As before.

Atisha states:
If one has an evil guru or an evil friend, one will be harmed by both.
Mokṣākaragupta mentions in the Dohakoṣapañjikā-nāma:
It is risky to consider evil gurus to be one's guru. Since one relies on such a one, the fault is that one begins to have evil views and evil behavior. One should avoid such gurus as one would a snake.
smcj wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:24 am
So in the case of Padmasambhava, if someone was his disciple, would it not be correct for them to see all his actions as pure, even though he behaved in ways that provoked criticism?
Sure, as long as he was not 1) murdering people, 2) molesting children, 3) raping women, 4) stealing and 5) lying.
So killing a minister's son and having 5 consorts that include teens to practice with is a pure guru?

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:12 pm

Tenma wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:50 pm
So killing a minister's son and having 5 consorts that include teens to practice with is a pure guru?
He was playing on the roof, and the staff slipped from his hands. It is not like Guru Rinpoche set out to murder the boy.

As for Yeshe Tsogyal, and the rest, when you were 16 in those days, you were a women, ready to be married.
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Grigoris
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:12 pm
He was playing on the roof, and the staff slipped from his hands. It is not like Guru Rinpoche set out to murder the boy.

As for Yeshe Tsogyal, and the rest, when you were 16 in those days, you were a women, ready to be married.
I seem to remember that some of his incarnations killed whole tribes of Daka, burnt forests, dried out lakes and other nastiness...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:12 pm
I seem to remember that some of his incarnations killed whole tribes of Daka, burnt forests, dried out lakes and other nastiness...
One really must be more precise than "I seem to recall."
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


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—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Tenma
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Tenma » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:21 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:12 pm
I seem to remember that some of his incarnations killed whole tribes of Daka, burnt forests, dried out lakes and other nastiness...
One really must be more precise than "I seem to recall."
Also, why on earth would he cause the persecution of Bönpos? That doesn't sound very saintly.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:21 pm
One really must be more precise than "I seem to recall."
In the Barchey Lamsel it states that Guru Rinpoche in his incarnation as Dukyi Shechen, while practicing in the Slate Mountain forest, hurled his "phurba of recitation" and burnt the sandalwood forest and dried up the lake. In his incarnation as Kalden Drendze he destroyed the teachings of the Bonpo. Give me some time and I'll find the bit about the tribe of Daka too...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:21 pm
One really must be more precise than "I seem to recall."
In the Barchey Lamsel it states that Guru Rinpoche in his incarnation as Dukyi Shechen while practicing in the Slate Mountain forest hurled his "phurba of recitation" and burnt the sandalwood forest and dried up the lake.
Yes, because there were harmful nonbuddhists there, etc. This manifestation is called "Great Enemy of Māra."
In his incarnation as Kalden Drendze he destroyed the teachings of the Bonpo. Give me some time and I'll find the bit about the tribe of Daka too...
What do you mean by destroy? In the supplication it pretty clear that Bon declined because the King, etc., where placed in the Dharma.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Lhasa » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:33 am

In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Adamantine » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:00 am

Lhasa wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:33 am
In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.
Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:30 am

Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:00 am
Lhasa wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:33 am
In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.
Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?
The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Adamantine
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Adamantine » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:44 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:30 am
Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:00 am
Lhasa wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:33 am
In the 'Heart Essence of the Khandro' by Yongdzin Rinpoche, starting on page 148, you will find the Bonpo version of what happened. Phrases like, "set out to destroy the doctrines of Yungdrung Bon,...a time of devastation,.. Bon lamas, ministers and powerful noble people as well as ordinary folk were put to death or banished...property confiscated,... those who remained in Tibet were forcefully and sometimes brutally converted to the new religion, Indian Buddhism....gompas laid waste,... persecution of the Bonpos."

Good read.
Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?
The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.
Right. I've been under the impression from what I've read that Guru Rinpoche's activities in Tibet were mainly subduing obstructing invisible beings and binding them under oath as protectors, along with his vast beneficial teaching efforts including concealing terma. The power struggle against the bonpo was more the King's department. Is that your take away?
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:40 am

Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:30 am
Adamantine wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:00 am


Sort of like what's happening to Muslims in Myanmar?
The charge is niot that there was a power struggle in Tibet between Tibetans who wanted to adopt Buddhism and those who dudn’t, the charge is that Guru Rinpoche was personally involved.
Right. I've been under the impression from what I've read that Guru Rinpoche's activities in Tibet were mainly subduing obstructing invisible beings and binding them under oath as protectors, along with his vast beneficial teaching efforts including concealing terma. The power struggle against the bonpo was more the King's department. Is that your take away?
Pretty much.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Tantric Murder, Padmasambhava and Bon, etc.

Post by Lhasa » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 am

Well if the king is subjugated to an extremely powerful siddha, and converts to that religion, how can you say that that siddha is not personally involved?

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:56 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 am
Well if the king is subjugated to an extremely powerful siddha, and converts to that religion, how can you say that that siddha is not personally involved?

You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.
Atikosha
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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smcj
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by smcj » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:46 pm

Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.
Bingo.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Grigoris
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:37 pm
What do you mean by destroy? In the supplication it pretty clear that Bon declined because the King, etc., where placed in the Dharma.
I am quoting the translation of the Barchey Lamsel text. The word they use is "destroyed".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:56 pm
You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.
You have faith in the fact that there can be a justified (tantric) murder and yet you cannot see how somebody can have faith in a (tantric) murderer? That's pretty strange...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:56 pm
You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. I am quoting the translation of the Barchey Lamsel text. The word they use is "destroyed".
You mean this line? It is the only mention of Bon:

10) Having done the accomplishment at Samye Chimphu,
repelled negative conditions and bestowed siddhi,
you placed the king and ministers on the path of liberation,
the teaching of the Bon’s demonic forms declined,
and the teaching of the precious immaculate dharmakāya
placed the fortunate on the stage of buddhahood.

gdon gzugs bon gyi bstan pa bsnubs.

The word in the text is bsnubs. It means either "med par gtong ba," "sent into nonexistence" or "nub par byed pa", "caused to decline."

It does not have the strong connotations of other Tibetan words, such as 'joms, to conquer, brlag pa, to crush.

The commentary by Dilgo Khyentse on this line states that the Bonpos were defeated in debate by Padmsambhava and Shantarakshita through citation and reasoning. They were then exiled by royal decree, and their teaching disappeared.

If you look at the broader history, this refers to a faction in the Tibetan court of Trisong Detsen that maintained connections to the overthrown Zhang Zhung kingdom whose power over Tibet had been shrugged off a century before when Srong Tsan Gampo engineered the assassination of King Ligmincha. "Bonpos" then are not the Bonpos we have today. And in other Kathang literature, we have clear examples of Padmasambhava interceding on behalf of some Bonpos whose practices did not involve animal and human sacrifice, so called "good Bonpos." So here, the so called "Bonpos" who were exiled were a specific political faction of Tibetans.
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The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Malcolm
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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Malcolm » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:56 pm
You are basically accusing Guru Rinpoche of being involved in a kind of ethnic cleansing. Do you really think that? Because if you do, I do not see how you can have faith in him.
You have faith in the fact that there can be a justified (tantric) murder and yet you cannot see how somebody can have faith in a (tantric) murderer? That's pretty strange...
You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.

And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues. As it is, those people are going to spend eons in lower realms for their crimes against sentient beings. Just to be clear, Daesh is a special case, like SS soldiers. There really is only one thing to be done with them. In general, however, I don't support wars.
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Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: The DJKR Topic

Post by Grigoris » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:51 pm
You've yet to establish that Guru Rinpoche was a tantric murderer or that there is such a thing as tantric murder. Liberation is not murder. It's liberation.
A rose by any other name...
And since we are talking about my other comment referring to Daesh fighters, eliminating them prevents them from engaging in further nonvirtues.
Maybe in this lifetime, but the karmic imprint would... And we all know how karmic imprints are erased and purified, don't we kiddies? Not by death, that's for sure. Unless one is a YOLO Buddhist., then for you death does equal liberation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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