Hell

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Post Reply
drodul
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:34 am

Hell

Post by drodul » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:07 pm

Most people, as human beings, don't remember their previous lives. Is there any teaching based on meditative realization, or the experience of delogs, etc, that indicate whether beings in hell have any memory of their previous misdeeds or have any idea why they are where they are?

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1383
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: Hell

Post by Losal Samten » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:09 pm

Yes, I believe it is due to the pain of our gestation and birthing via our womb birth that we do not remember, and due to their miraculous birth that they have greater clarity.


The Descent into the Womb Sutra goes over the pains, such as:

To the extent the mother moves more or less forcefully, it is bounced around, with its head and limbs confined, so that it experiences a sense of suffering that is powerful, intense, violent, unbearable, and hard to imagine.


Candrakirti in his Letter to a Student states:

It is gradually squeezed the way sesame oil is squeezed from a press, then somehow it is born. However, those whose lives are not lost in that process must endure the assault of pain.

The body is rolled about in that filthy place, is smeared with slime from the womb and stinks unbearably. Memory is lost due to such torment, which is like the culmination of an inflamed wound, or like being ready to vomit.



Jigten Sumgon says of the lower realms (as explained by Rigdzin Chokyi Dragpa):

19. Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior

It is said, "Because of [their] great ignorance, animals are inferior".
When one is born in the hells, the three notions will appear*
Therefore regret will arise and virtuous attitude will originate.
For that reason one will be liberated [from the hells].
Also the pretas have a clear awareness and are therefore equal to the former.
Since animals are deluded, they have only sensations of happiness and suffering,
But perceive nothing else. Therefore, if they leave their current body,
They will go through the other lower realms.
For that reason they are considered especially inferior.
The meaning is to be known in this way.


*Being born in the hells one thinks 1. about the past life, 2. about the next life and 3. about cause and effect, i.e. about the reason for each rebirth.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 2983
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Hell

Post by kalden yungdrung » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:58 pm

Tashi delek ,

Suffering seems to be so intensive in hell, that thoughts are nearly impossible to arise.
Same with the pretas or hungry ghosts .

Are there methods to get hell beings out of their house of fire and ice ?
Hell is mind made like everything else.
Can one eradicate the mental karmic imprints of a hell being or other sentient being?
In so far i know, is that after a certain period, the hell being will reincarnate into another realm of karma.
Then the karma of the hell being is exhausted or diminished.

But maybe there are Buddhas who can empty the karma mind of the sentient being who dwells in the hell.

Guess to be a human is the best form to eradicate the mental karmic imprints , the rest have enormous problems with that,
Therefore it shows us not to be reborn in the other 5 realms of karma.

KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

pael
Posts: 468
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Hell

Post by pael » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 am

Sūtra of the Whole-Body Relic Treasure Chest Seal Dhāraṇī The Heart Secret of All Tathāgatas says:
“If an evil man after death falls into hell, he must suffer uninterruptedly, not knowing when release will come. However, if his descendants say his name and then recite this spiritual mantra, upon completion of only seven repetitions, the molten copper and burning iron in hell will suddenly change into pond water with the eight virtues.
How is this possible?
Paccha-bhumika Sutta says:
"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.
Can someone solve this problem for me?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

User avatar
Wayfarer
Posts: 3761
Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 8:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Hell

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:14 am

Sam Bercholz, who founded Shambhala Publications, has published a book on hell, as a consequence of a near-death he experienced due to surgery. I haven't read it - actually it looks a bit forbidding - but if you're interested in Buddhist ideas on hell, it might be interesting to you. Information on it is here.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1857
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:51 pm

drodul wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:07 pm
Most people, as human beings, don't remember their previous lives. Is there any teaching based on meditative realization, or the experience of delogs, etc, that indicate whether beings in hell have any memory of their previous misdeeds or have any idea why they are where they are?
Pretty sure hell beings know why they are there since there are always people from the world of the living being taken down there and shown the different hells and having it explained what deeds create what hells and all that.

There is an old grandmother who gives people a certain tea before they are reincarnated. That tea makes them forget their time in hell.

tingdzin
Posts: 1046
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Hell

Post by tingdzin » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:39 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:51 pm
There is an old grandmother who gives people a certain tea before they are reincarnated. That tea makes them forget their time in hell.
Wow, that's a new one for me.
Could you tell me where this idea comes from?

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1857
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Hell

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:16 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Wow, that's a new one for me.
Could you tell me where this idea comes from?
Check out the stories about Moggallāna.

Or wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Po

tingdzin
Posts: 1046
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:19 am

Re: Hell

Post by tingdzin » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:25 pm

Thanks.

Jeff H
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Hell

Post by Jeff H » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:59 pm

pael wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 am
Sūtra of the Whole-Body Relic Treasure Chest Seal Dhāraṇī The Heart Secret of All Tathāgatas says:
“If an evil man after death falls into hell, he must suffer uninterruptedly, not knowing when release will come. However, if his descendants say his name and then recite this spiritual mantra, upon completion of only seven repetitions, the molten copper and burning iron in hell will suddenly change into pond water with the eight virtues.
How is this possible?
Paccha-bhumika Sutta says:
"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.
Can someone solve this problem for me?
You’re in good company wondering about this. Shantideva says this:
In chapter 4 Shantideva wrote:21. If through the evil action of a single instant
I must spend an aeon in the hell of Unrelenting Pain,
The evils in saṃsāra stored from time without beginning—
No need to say that they will keep me from the states of bliss!

22. And mere experience of such pain
Does not result in being freed from it.
For in the very suffering of such states,
More evil will occur, and then in great abundance.
And Kunzang Pelden, in his commentary on The Way of the Bodhisattva, (The Nectar of Manjushri’s Speech), makes this rather startling observation about those verses:
Kunzang Pelden wrote:If beings who are in hell (the place in which their karma has fructified) also accumulate karma while they are there — which will then be experienced in due sequence — it follows that there can be no chance of liberation from such a state. Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16696
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Hell

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:43 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:16 pm
tingdzin wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:39 pm
Wow, that's a new one for me.
Could you tell me where this idea comes from?
Check out the stories about Moggallāna.

Or wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meng_Po
I wish I could get some of that tea and hand it out to my patients suffering from PTSD! They are forever asking me to give them a medication that will make them forget.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Hell

Post by Tenma » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:44 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:59 pm
pael wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 am
Sūtra of the Whole-Body Relic Treasure Chest Seal Dhāraṇī The Heart Secret of All Tathāgatas says:
“If an evil man after death falls into hell, he must suffer uninterruptedly, not knowing when release will come. However, if his descendants say his name and then recite this spiritual mantra, upon completion of only seven repetitions, the molten copper and burning iron in hell will suddenly change into pond water with the eight virtues.
How is this possible?
Paccha-bhumika Sutta says:
"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.
Can someone solve this problem for me?
You’re in good company wondering about this. Shantideva says this:
In chapter 4 Shantideva wrote:21. If through the evil action of a single instant
I must spend an aeon in the hell of Unrelenting Pain,
The evils in saṃsāra stored from time without beginning—
No need to say that they will keep me from the states of bliss!

22. And mere experience of such pain
Does not result in being freed from it.
For in the very suffering of such states,
More evil will occur, and then in great abundance.
And Kunzang Pelden, in his commentary on The Way of the Bodhisattva, (The Nectar of Manjushri’s Speech), makes this rather startling observation about those verses:
Kunzang Pelden wrote:If beings who are in hell (the place in which their karma has fructified) also accumulate karma while they are there — which will then be experienced in due sequence — it follows that there can be no chance of liberation from such a state. Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
Then what's the point of Ksitigarbha? Or Amitabha? Or reading the Bardo Thodol when one is just too doomed for hell? Does that mean liberation by whatever(whether it be right by Aa Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma, taste by mendrup, etc.) doesn't work?

Jeff H
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Hell

Post by Jeff H » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 pm

Well, I'm an infant in my Buddhism, so in this case I keep the matter bracketed as Kunzang Pelden does:
Kunzang Pelden wrote:Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
:shrug:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 598
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: Hell

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:13 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:14 am
Sam Bercholz, who founded Shambhala Publications, has published a book on hell, as a consequence of a near-death he experienced due to surgery. I haven't read it - actually it looks a bit forbidding - but if you're interested in Buddhist ideas on hell, it might be interesting to you. Information on it is here.
:good:

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Hell

Post by Aryjna » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 pm
Well, I'm an infant in my Buddhism, so in this case I keep the matter bracketed as Kunzang Pelden does:
Kunzang Pelden wrote:Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
:shrug:
As far as i can tell, Kunzang Pelden's point is that hell cannot be prolonged to infinity through the generation of new karma while there. He does not contradict the possibility of hell, or its extremely long duration.
Last edited by Aryjna on Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Hell

Post by Aryjna » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:24 pm

pael wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:33 am
Sūtra of the Whole-Body Relic Treasure Chest Seal Dhāraṇī The Heart Secret of All Tathāgatas says:
“If an evil man after death falls into hell, he must suffer uninterruptedly, not knowing when release will come. However, if his descendants say his name and then recite this spiritual mantra, upon completion of only seven repetitions, the molten copper and burning iron in hell will suddenly change into pond water with the eight virtues.
How is this possible?
Paccha-bhumika Sutta says:
"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.
Can someone solve this problem for me?
The difference is quite obvious. The first sutra is talking about a very powerful dharani. The second sutta is talking about mundane well-wishing.

Jeff H
Posts: 806
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 8:56 pm
Location: Vermont, USA

Re: Hell

Post by Jeff H » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:03 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 pm
Well, I'm an infant in my Buddhism, so in this case I keep the matter bracketed as Kunzang Pelden does:
Kunzang Pelden wrote:Personally, I do not see how this can be so and therefore respectfully request the learned to consider well what might be Shantideva’s intended meaning here.
:shrug:
As far as i can tell, Kunzang Pelden's point is that hell cannot be prolonged to infinity through the generation of new karma while there. He does not contradict the possibility of hell, or its extremely long duration.
I think KP's point is that in those two verses it sounds as if Shantideva is saying that once a being has generated the experience of hell, the experience itself necessarily perpetuates the creation of continuing negative karma. KP is saying that if such a defeatist view is true, it contradicts the teachings that say all beings have the potential for enlightenment.

The advantage of the human realm is reason and a balance of suffering and happiness, whereby it is possible to understand and take corrective action. I think Shantideva's primary thrust in The Way of the Bodhisattva is to stimulate a strong call-to-action so that "others who now chance upon my words may profit also, equal to myself in fortune." He may be touching on hyperbole here in order to emphasize the urgency of seizing the precious opportunity of this life.

In any case, it's evident that KP doesn't accept the statement's literal, logical conclusion, but wonders aloud in his commentary how best to understand it.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 502
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Hell

Post by Aryjna » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:20 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:03 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:22 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:43 pm
Well, I'm an infant in my Buddhism, so in this case I keep the matter bracketed as Kunzang Pelden does:

:shrug:
As far as i can tell, Kunzang Pelden's point is that hell cannot be prolonged to infinity through the generation of new karma while there. He does not contradict the possibility of hell, or its extremely long duration.
I think KP's point is that in those two verses it sounds as if Shantideva is saying that once a being has generated the experience of hell, the experience itself necessarily perpetuates the creation of continuing negative karma. KP is saying that if such a defeatist view is true, it contradicts the teachings that say all beings have the potential for enlightenment.

The advantage of the human realm is reason and a balance of suffering and happiness, whereby it is possible to understand and take corrective action. I think Shantideva's primary thrust in The Way of the Bodhisattva is to stimulate a strong call-to-action so that "others who now chance upon my words may profit also, equal to myself in fortune." He may be touching on hyperbole here in order to emphasize the urgency of seizing the precious opportunity of this life.

In any case, it's evident that KP doesn't accept the statement's literal, logical conclusion, but wonders aloud in his commentary how best to understand it.
That is my understanding as well.

Varis
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Hell

Post by Varis » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:05 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:58 pm
Are there methods to get hell beings out of their house of fire and ice ?
Methods for releasing hell beings and ghosts are common in East Asian Buddhism, Ksitigarbha mantra and rituals are one of those methods. I'm assuming these practices aren't well known in Tibet?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], heart, lisehull, loktibrada, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 39 guests