Dakini Script?

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Tenma
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Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am

I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Motova
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 am

Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
Apparently some people can actually read Dakini language. I vaguely remember Ayang Rinpoche mentioning at a Phowa course that he had some Dakini Script on him and he managed to find a Dakini to read it for him. It was some kind of prophecy that Ayang Rinpoche would be successful in spreading the Phowa teachings in his current life if I remember correctly.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Tenma
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:21 am

Motova wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
Apparently some people can actually read Dakini language. I vaguely remember Ayang Rinpoche mentioning at a Phowa course that he had some Dakini Script on him and he managed to find a Dakini to read it for him. It was some kind of prophecy that Ayang Rinpoche would be successful in spreading the Phowa teachings in his current life if I remember correctly.
Wait, how did he get a mystical dakini cannibal? Or is it just a regular lady initiated in these secret practices?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Motova
Posts: 1233
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:25 am

Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:21 am
Motova wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
Apparently some people can actually read Dakini language. I vaguely remember Ayang Rinpoche mentioning at a Phowa course that he had some Dakini Script on him and he managed to find a Dakini to read it for him. It was some kind of prophecy that Ayang Rinpoche would be successful in spreading the Phowa teachings in his current life if I remember correctly.
Wait, how did he get a mystical dakini cannibal?
No, she manifested in the human realm. Whether or not she was nirmanakaya or an accomplished practitioner I have no idea. I think I remember him having a hard time finding someone able to read it, apparently it is a very rare ability.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Tenma
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:43 am

Motova wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:25 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:21 am
Motova wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:08 am


Apparently some people can actually read Dakini language. I vaguely remember Ayang Rinpoche mentioning at a Phowa course that he had some Dakini Script on him and he managed to find a Dakini to read it for him. It was some kind of prophecy that Ayang Rinpoche would be successful in spreading the Phowa teachings in his current life if I remember correctly.
Wait, how did he get a mystical dakini cannibal?
No, she manifested in the human realm. Whether or not she was nirmanakaya or an accomplished practitioner I have no idea. I think I remember him having a hard time finding someone able to read it, apparently it is a very rare ability.
What about the charm script for protection?
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Motova
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:51 am

Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:43 am
Motova wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:25 am
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:21 am

Wait, how did he get a mystical dakini cannibal?
No, she manifested in the human realm. Whether or not she was nirmanakaya or an accomplished practitioner I have no idea. I think I remember him having a hard time finding someone able to read it, apparently it is a very rare ability.
What about the charm script for protection?
As Dharma practitioners we go for Refuge in the Three Jewels. Refuge, renunciation, right view, Bodhicitta, practice, study, reflection, etc etc will protect you. Also many many worldly beings promised the Buddha to protect his students. If you practice Dharma authentically then you have nothing to fear. In addition you have access to sutric mantras that can give you protection.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.


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Josef
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Josef » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:13 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
That isnt a legitimate lineage, so anything from that site should be treated with scrutiny.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Tlalok
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tlalok » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:34 pm

IIRC According to Garchen Rinpoche, Dakini script left as treasure teachings are jumbles of a few syllables that are unintelligible to everyone apart from the Terton. When the Terton finds these syllables they kind of "unspool" in their mind, revealing the whole cycle. So thousands of volumes can be contained within a single syllable.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm

HIja' 'ach reH Hoch QaQ.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

Tenma
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:13 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
That isnt a legitimate lineage, so anything from that site should be treated with scrutiny.
Wait, what? How are they not authentic? Do you mean the scripts, owl dakini, bat dakini, teachers, deities, dances, and so on were all fake?
Last edited by Tenma on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

Tenma
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:41 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:40 pm
HIja' 'ach reH Hoch QaQ.
The only thing that came from that for me was a bunch of Middle Eastern mosques and art with fully covered females and a pilgrimage to Mecca. :rolling:
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

amanitamusc
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 am

Tenma wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:13 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 1:37 am
I've been reading Buddhism for Vampires, and found this link from there from what seems to be a Nyingmapa lineage called Aro:
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
From what was said, it said that dakinis use both language and body language as their own language. Could someone give more info on this? Also, what on earth is the khandro script? I read it is for protection, but could someone give more info on it?
http://www.aroencyclopaedia.org/shared/ ... 01_eng.php
That isnt a legitimate lineage, so anything from that site should be treated with scrutiny.
Wait, what? How are they not authentic? Do you mean the scripts, owl dakini, bat dakini, teachers, deities, dances, and so on were all fake?
I'm would not make such a bold statement but this lineage is fraught with controversy.

Tenma
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Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:09 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 am
Tenma wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:13 pm


That isnt a legitimate lineage, so anything from that site should be treated with scrutiny.
Wait, what? How are they not authentic? Do you mean the scripts, owl dakini, bat dakini, teachers, deities, dances, and so on were all fake?
I'm would not make such a bold statement but this lineage is fraught with controversy.
Could you please give an example? Sorry, but I grew too attached to the idea that this was an authentic Nyingma lineage and took in a few of their teachings. :shrug:
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

amanitamusc
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:17 am

Tenma wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:09 am
amanitamusc wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 am
Tenma wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:58 am


Wait, what? How are they not authentic? Do you mean the scripts, owl dakini, bat dakini, teachers, deities, dances, and so on were all fake?
I'm would not make such a bold statement but this lineage is fraught with controversy.
Could you please give an example? Sorry, but I grew too attached to the idea that this was an authentic Nyingma lineage and took in a few of their teachings. :shrug:
You can do a search here and find plenty info.

crazy-man
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by crazy-man » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:40 am

Wait, what? How are they not authentic? Do you mean the scripts, owl dakini, bat dakini, teachers, deities, dances, and so on were all fake?
read this
What is the Aro controversy?
As far as I can tell, there isn’t one, really. Instead, there was a group of about ten people who said negative things about the Aro tradition on the web. Mostly that happened only on one forum, e-Sangha, which was controlled by members of the group. The forum is now defunct.
So what did they say?
Two main things. One is that an Aro Lama, Ngak’chang Rinpoche, is not authorized to teach. The other is that the Aro teachings are based on a “fake terma.”
Is Ngak’chang Rinpoche authorized to teach?
Yes. Several Tibetan lamas have explicitly said so, verbally and in writing.
So why did some people say he wasn’t?
It is hard to know. One reason is that, back in the 1980s, one of his former teachers said that Ngak’chang Rinpoche was not authorized. That was not true. Even if it had been, it is no longer relevant. That teacher died in the early 1990s. Ngak’chang Rinpoche’s teaching has been explicitly approved by several prominent Tibetan lamas since then.
Is the Aro gTér a fake terma?
A “terma” is a Tibetan Buddhist revelation. The Aro gTér belongs to the Nyingma division of Tibetan Buddhism, which is based almost entirely on termas. New termas are discovered all the time.
According to Nyingma doctrine, termas can be “authentic” or “fake.” There is a specific, highly-technical meaning for these terms, in Nyingma theory. A terma being “authentic” or “fake” has nothing to do with the objective truth of what it says, and nothing to do with the objective history of how it came into being. It has to do with its magical history: whether or not the revelation came from non-physical Buddhas.
Unfortunately, according to Nyingma doctrine, there is no useful way to find out whether any terma is “authentic” in this sense. No ordinary evidence is relevant. The only way to know is to be an omniscient Buddha.
So, we cannot know whether or not the Aro gTér is “fake” in the traditional sense.. However, anyone who says that it is definitely fake shows that they don’t know very much about Tibetan Buddhism. (Or that they think they are an omniscient Buddha.)
A better question to ask is whether the Aro terma is useful. It is worth asking whether the Aro tradition is a “good fit” for you personally.
Does the Aro gTér contradict other Tibetan Buddhist teachings?
No. Aro teachings and practices are entirely mainstream. Everything taught by the Aro lineage is consistent with standard Nyingma Buddhism.
What was the e-Sangha Aro policy about?
At one time, e-Sangha allowed its members to say only negative things about the Aro tradition. (Most of these statements were not true). Neutral and positive postings were removed, and the posters were banned from the forum. After I and others objected to this policy, e-Sangha disallowed all discussion of the lineage (but retained most of the old negative postings).
OK, I don’t get it. If there is no problem, why the e-Sangha policy? Why was there so much anti-Aro stuff there?
I don’t know.
The e-Sangha forum was generally contentious. It owners had a specific, perhaps narrow view on Buddhism. The Aro lineage was not the only group they condemned. Among others, they banned Soto Zen (which is the largest Zen tradition) and the Tibetan Bön tradition. It was perhaps something of an honor to be banned in their company.
Almost none of the negativity was actually directed at the Aro lineage. It was almost all about Ngak’chang Rinpoche, an Aro Lama. In my experience, he a kind and decent person, and an excellent teacher.
The anti-Aro clique was mainly composed of former students of former teachers of Ngak’chang Rinpoche. Some of them seem to have been be motivated by jealousy, because their teachers authorized him to teach and not them. Others just plain didn’t like him. Either way, their criticisms concerned personality conflicts from twenty-plus years ago. Probably now everyone involved can let go of that.
It is flattering, in a way, that almost all of the “ controversy” was about the teacher rather than the teachings. It is only when opponents have nothing substantive to criticize that they resort to attacking you personally.
How can I find out more?
My terma section considers in detail the question of the validity of the Aro gTér. Another section discusses what has been said about Ngak’chang Rinpoche.
If you have a question those don’t answer, feel free to ask in a comment, or email me.
Of course, if you would like to learn more about the Aro tradition (rather than the “controversy”), the Aro Introduction site or Aro community site would be the best resources.
https://approachingaro.org/aro-controversy-faq

mutsuk
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:58 am

Aro's lineage (not to be confounded with the Sems-sde lineage from A-ro Ye-shes 'byung-gnas, *9th c.) is fake because it is based on the supposed teachings of Aro Lingma, a woman said to have lived around the late 19th-early 20th century. However, there never was any Aro Lingma, and there was never any Lingma at all in the entire history of Tibet. It's as easy as that. The entire thing is based on a hoax, to which the english founder has added even more spurious things, such as inventing its own protectors, and so forth.

Motova
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:09 am

From Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism by Rig'dzin Dorje:

Page 28:

"Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal demonstrated this in the most profound manner by attending Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teaching on chod (gCod) at Pema 'oSel Ling and receiving from him the empowerments of Troma Nakmo and Machig Labdron."

http://www.riwoche.com/SonamRinpoche.html

Before that the author mentions many other well known Rinpoche's supporting Ngak’chang Rinpoche, I'm just going to bed so someone else can post that.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

mutsuk
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:25 am

Then, please, next time ask Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal about Aro Lingma. If the whole thing was not a hoax, how come the founder has not shown the terma he is supposed to have found ? Can he read (and understand) Tibetan ? I am sure KST has no clue about the whole thing Ngakpa Chogyam invented...

Simon E.
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 am

Oh dear.
It's time for the annual Festival Of Outrage concerning the Aro gTer.
A deeply dull regular feature that seems to exist mostly to channel indignation.

When I first encountered the Arogter I assumed as most do that it's claims were false and that it was all fake. Although I had a lingering thought that proving the absence of historicity is at best problematic.

Then I met actual Aro gTer people and my assumptions were challenged. (As incidentally and more importantly have been the assumptions of several teachers of unimpeachable reputation).

Those Aro people are showing the distinct and unmistakable fruits of some accomplishment.
Which is more than be said for most who opine on Internet forums.

Now, I might be losing my marbles and going soft in my old age, but I don't think so.

There we are. Take it or leave it. I have no investment in this except for a sense of fair play.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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