Dakini Script?

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:14 pm

Is it cricket?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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mutsuk
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:42 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:30 am
Oh dear. It's time for the annual Festival Of Outrage concerning the Aro gTer.
No, it's the festival of defending dharma hoax. You won the crown.
Then I met actual Aro gTer people and my assumptions were challenged. (As incidentally and more importantly have been the assumptions of several teachers of unimpeachable reputation).
Your "feelings" are totally irrelevant to the problem. And who really cares what you had in mind before and after meeting Aros ? Honestly, how can you imagine that your opinion can replace the fact that Chogyam entirely invented the whole thing ? This is not fair for those who might be induced in believing that this is a legit system. Aro Lingma is an invention. Her termas are an invention. The protectors they are propitiating are an invention. I find it very suspect that someone who constantly claims authority out of old age, who knows shit about tibetan, can imagine his defense of this hoax is valid in any way whatsoever.
I would change my mind if I were to be shown those so-called "termas"...
It's a whole hoax. Just try to swallow it and it will save people some risks of deviating into this while there are (still) very legit system of tibetan buddhism with authentic lineages.

Simon E.
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 pm

I am not sure which part of 'take it or leave it' you do not understand.

I care as much about your feelings on the matter, as you care about mine.

8-)

But the floor is yours. Feel free to ventilate. It might help.....
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Virgo
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Virgo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:34 pm

Dear Mutsuk,

I don't disagree with your points at all. I just wanted to point out that when you write something like the following:
I find it very suspect that someone who constantly claims authority out of old age, who knows shit about tibetan, can imagine his defense of this hoax is valid in any way whatsoever.
You get this:
I care as much about your feelings on the matter, as you care about mine.
You dependently originate bad feelings and conflict with that kind of approach.

This is just whatI have learned over time dealing with people.

Kevin

mutsuk
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:36 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:51 pm
I am not sure which part of 'take it or leave it' you do not understand.
On the contrary, I am sure that what you do not understand is what is kosher and what is not. Your reply was sadly so predictable.
I care as much about your feelings on the matter, as you care about mine. 8-)
Well, the problem is that you're never really addressing the root of the problem with Aro. You and your wife had a nice time with Aro, so for you Aro is legit. Well, I've been having a nice time with some Christians and I don't think their path is legit. You make a blocage about canonicity. This is a serious problem for the future. If the "canon" of TB is represented by some Jax and Chogyam, then we're in bit sh*t.
But the floor is yours. Feel free to ventilate. It might help.....
Thanks, you're so much the british gentleman we so obviously expect you to be. Thanks Simon.

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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:40 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:34 pm
Dear Mutsuk,

I don't disagree with your points at all. I just wanted to point out that when you write something like the following:... You get this:...You dependently originate bad feelings and conflict with that kind of approach.
Agreed, I am just answering Simon with the same condescending/sarcastic tone he usually uses with people he does not agree with. I have not tried to mislead anyone when reporting about the Aro hoax. I am forwarding informations. Simon is forwarding his feelings, which are totally irrelevant but which seem to have a big importance for him. However, these feelings are totally off-topic and are as worth as mines or anyone else's. They are not important. Real info is important.
This is just whatI have learned over time dealing with people.
I know, and I see it, I have seen your post evolve greatly in the past years.

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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Virgo » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:45 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:40 pm
Real info is important.
Well thank you for informing people about the illegitimacy of this lineage.

Kevin

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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by mutsuk » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 pm

Virgo wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:45 pm
mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:40 pm
Real info is important.
Well thank you for informing people about the illegitimacy of this lineage.

Kevin
You are welcome. I have previously had some very interesting discussions about Aro previously on DW (I can't remember the thread though) with one person who was a former Aro-ist (if I'm not mistaken) and the exchange was really interesting since it was not based on "who's got the biggest one" or "who is going to shut the other's mouth first", as is tragically so often the case. I think it was unfortunately ended prematurely (even maybe because it got heated up by another poster, although my memory is maybe totally wrong here; I apologize in advance if my memory serves me wrong on that).

JLA recently afforded me an entire access to TBRC's numerous chos-'byung (histories of Dharma) or gter-'byung (histories of terma revelations), including a lot of new material from Eastern Tibet and large collections of newer termas (most of them previously unknown to westerner tibetology but pretty well-known in Tibet itself), many of them dealing with a period extending from the beginning of the 19th century down to the last decades of the 20th. Some of these histories (even some sources in Chinese) give a gigantic place to details, and there is not even a hint at anybody called Aro Lingma. I have asked many knowledgeable persons (tibetologists, lamas, etc.) about so-called Lingmas and all those fluent in the Nyingma/Bon lore about tertöns laughed at the very idea... The terrible thing in all that is that Chogyam could not have chosen a worst name had he had any correct knowledge of the tertons milieu and what a gling-pa is. He made up the idea of a gling-ma, while ignoring that it does not exist...

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:09 pm

You have not experienced Shakespeare until you have read him in the original Klingon.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:12 pm

Motova wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:09 am
From Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism by Rig'dzin Dorje:

Page 28:

"Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal demonstrated this in the most profound manner by attending Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teaching on chod (gCod) at Pema 'oSel Ling and receiving from him the empowerments of Troma Nakmo and Machig Labdron."

http://www.riwoche.com/SonamRinpoche.html

Before that the author mentions many other well known Rinpoche's supporting Ngak’chang Rinpoche, I'm just going to bed so someone else can post that.
It's the wrong Khenpo Sonam. The Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal who attended that empowerment is this fellow:




How do I know? We discussed it and he was a resident at Pema Osal Ling at the time. Further, Lama Tarchin, while friends with Chogyam, did not invite him to teach, but rather, the Aro folks rented POL for their event.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:12 pm
Motova wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:09 am
From Dangerous Friend: The Teacher-Student Relationship in Vajrayana Buddhism by Rig'dzin Dorje:

Page 28:

"Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal demonstrated this in the most profound manner by attending Ngak'chang Rinpoche's teaching on chod (gCod) at Pema 'oSel Ling and receiving from him the empowerments of Troma Nakmo and Machig Labdron."

http://www.riwoche.com/SonamRinpoche.html

Before that the author mentions many other well known Rinpoche's supporting Ngak’chang Rinpoche, I'm just going to bed so someone else can post that.
It's the wrong Khenpo Sonam. The Khenpo Sonam Tobgyal who attended that empowerment is this fellow:




How do I know? We discussed it and he was a resident at Pema Osal Ling at the time. Further, Lama Tarchin, while friends with Chogyam, did not invite him to teach, but rather, the Aro folks rented POL for their event.
Thank you for correcting me and providing further background information.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Simon E.
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:36 pm

Before leaving the topic I would just like to correct one point...my wife has had no connection to the Aro gTer at all. She is a student of Lama Jampa Thaye..who of course also has the temerity to be British, so the mistake is perhaps understandable.



Carry on emoting.. :smile:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

Tenma
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Tenma » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 pm

Looks like I'll have to rewind my information then... :(
So, let's start with basic info.
Za Rahula isn't going to lynch you for practicing dharma correctly and will not give seizures for not keeping Samaya?
The lineage masters are all fake, along with the tertons, meditation session, deities, rituals, and dance?
The second script with the slight Tibetan and Siddham writings are not charms for protection?
The first script is not actual dakini script?
Sorry, but I have much more information to rewind, so please just answer these few at the moment.... :thinking:
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔

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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:33 pm

Tenma wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 pm
Looks like I'll have to rewind my information then... :(
So, let's start with basic info.
Za Rahula isn't going to lynch you for practicing dharma correctly and will not give seizures for not keeping Samaya?
The lineage masters are all fake, along with the tertons, meditation session, deities, rituals, and dance?
The second script with the slight Tibetan and Siddham writings are not charms for protection?
The first script is not actual dakini script?
Sorry, but I have much more information to rewind, so please just answer these few at the moment.... :thinking:
No one agrees in Buddhism or Tibetan Buddhism. Eventually you'll have to go against the majority and learn from a perfect Lama that teaches authentic Dharma for your condition and karma.

Hinayana: Don't harm others. Mahayana: Help others. Vajrayana: Respect your teachers, lineage masters, teachings, and Vajra family and don't cause problems for them. Maintain Bodhicitta and strengthen it at everyone moment you can. The Buddhas aren't giving us teachings to traumatize us about vows and samaya, it doesn't make sense. Stick with Bodhicitta and it will bring clarity when faced with foreign topics within Buddhism. Also the vows and samaya will feel less like chores, when you approach them with Bodhicitta.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Josef
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:07 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:58 am
Aro's lineage (not to be confounded with the Sems-sde lineage from A-ro Ye-shes 'byung-gnas, *9th c.) is fake because it is based on the supposed teachings of Aro Lingma, a woman said to have lived around the late 19th-early 20th century. However, there never was any Aro Lingma, and there was never any Lingma at all in the entire history of Tibet. It's as easy as that. The entire thing is based on a hoax, to which the english founder has added even more spurious things, such as inventing its own protectors, and so forth.
This.
Their entire lineage is completely made up by a fellow who likes to play dress up and manipulate photographs of himself with legitimate masters in order to make it look like endorsements.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

climb-up
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by climb-up » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm

mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 pm
The terrible thing in all that is that Chogyam could not have chosen a worst name had he had any correct knowledge of the tertons milieu and what a gling-pa is. He made up the idea of a gling-ma, while ignoring that it does not exist...
Sorry for the ignorance, but what is a gling-pa and why is gling-ma impossible?
Is it a name or a title?
Is it a linguistic or cultural impossibility?

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:37 pm

Long ago, a devout old woman asked her son, who was a merchant, if he would bring her back a relic of the Buddha when he traveled to India. He promised.

However, he forgot all about his promise until his return journey. He was ten minutes from home, when he remembered. Looking around, he saw a dead maggot-ridden dog rotting in a ditch by the side of the road. Reaching over, he removed a tooth from the corpse.

He presented this tooth to his mother and told her that this was a relic of the Buddha which he had obtained in India.

His mother’s eyes filled with tears of joy. She placed this tooth on her small altar and every day she prayed and prostrated to it.

After some years of this, the tooth began to glow.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:41 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm
mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 pm
The terrible thing in all that is that Chogyam could not have chosen a worst name had he had any correct knowledge of the tertons milieu and what a gling-pa is. He made up the idea of a gling-ma, while ignoring that it does not exist...
Sorry for the ignorance, but what is a gling-pa and why is gling-ma impossible?
Is it a name or a title?
Is it a linguistic or cultural impossibility?

A ling, spelled 'gling' in Tibetan, is an island or continent, and it is often used to refer to the location of a Dharma center or monastery. A lingpa would be someone associated with such a place, but the word is used as a title for great tertons. I believe the idea is that such a terton would have visited Ngayab Ling in visions. A lingma would presumably be a female lingpa. I don't think it is a linguistic or cultural impossibility. I think mutsuk's point is that the term has never actually been used in Tibet to describe a female terton although it appears that the term itself exists but with a different meaning, see: http://dictionary.thlib.org/internal_de ... term/37850.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Motova
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by Motova » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:15 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:41 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:42 pm
mutsuk wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:05 pm
The terrible thing in all that is that Chogyam could not have chosen a worst name had he had any correct knowledge of the tertons milieu and what a gling-pa is. He made up the idea of a gling-ma, while ignoring that it does not exist...
Sorry for the ignorance, but what is a gling-pa and why is gling-ma impossible?
Is it a name or a title?
Is it a linguistic or cultural impossibility?

A ling, spelled 'gling' in Tibetan, is an island or continent, and it is often used to refer to the location of a Dharma center or monastery. A lingpa would be someone associated with such a place, but the word is used as a title for great tertons. I believe the idea is that such a terton would have visited Ngayab Ling in visions. A lingma would presumably be a female lingpa. I don't think it is a linguistic or cultural impossibility. I think mutsuk's point is that the term has never actually been used in Tibet to describe a female terton although it appears that the term itself exists but with a different meaning, see: http://dictionary.thlib.org/internal_de ... term/37850.
A female terton?! What is the world coming too?! Next thing, you know, someone will be teaching Dzogchen through webcasts, giving empowerments through recordings, or students will be empowered not to be abused by fake lamas!!!
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dakini Script?

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:30 am

Motova wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:15 am
A female terton?! What is the world coming too?! Next thing, you know, someone will be teaching Dzogchen through webcasts, giving empowerments through recordings, or students will be empowered not to be abused by fake lamas!!!

There have actually been at least two female tertons, namely Sera Khandro and Tare Lhamo.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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