Types of emanations

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csmorg96
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Types of emanations

Post by csmorg96 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:13 pm

Can anyone clarify what the differences between mind, body, speech, quality and activity emanations are?

Josef
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Josef » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm

It's a way to make sure several wealthy patrons or prominent families get a son recognized as a tulku.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:48 pm

I've never seen or heard an explanation of any difference between them. The only thing I know is that typically the mind emanation is the most important. For example, Dudjom Lingpa had five emanations of body, speech, mind, qualities, and activity. Dudjom Rinpoche was the mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa and I think was kind of the most important emanation of Dudjom Lingpa in a sense.

Josef
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Josef » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:09 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:48 pm
I've never seen or heard an explanation of any difference between them. The only thing I know is that typically the mind emanation is the most important. For example, Dudjom Lingpa had five emanations of body, speech, mind, qualities, and activity. Dudjom Rinpoche was the mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa and I think was kind of the most important emanation of Dudjom Lingpa in a sense.
It also depends on the qualities of each individual recognition.
For example, Patrul was a speech emanation of Jigme Lingpa and even though other emanations were extraordinary as well it would be hard to argue that one was more important than the other.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Simon E.
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
It's a way to make sure several wealthy patrons or prominent families get a son recognized as a tulku.



:applause:
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:37 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:09 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:48 pm
I've never seen or heard an explanation of any difference between them. The only thing I know is that typically the mind emanation is the most important. For example, Dudjom Lingpa had five emanations of body, speech, mind, qualities, and activity. Dudjom Rinpoche was the mind emanation of Dudjom Lingpa and I think was kind of the most important emanation of Dudjom Lingpa in a sense.
It also depends on the qualities of each individual recognition.
For example, Patrul was a speech emanation of Jigme Lingpa and even though other emanations were extraordinary as well it would be hard to argue that one was more important than the other.
I had thought I heard that somewhere, but I might have just pulled that out of my ass. Well, it wasn't any of my main teachers where I remember hearing it from anyway. So yea, perhaps I am just wrong about that.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:41 am

Simon E. wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
It's a way to make sure several wealthy patrons or prominent families get a son recognized as a tulku.
:applause:
Sigh, yes. Makes sense. I wish I could stop being cynical.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

Josef
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Josef » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:02 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:41 am
Simon E. wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:23 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:43 pm
It's a way to make sure several wealthy patrons or prominent families get a son recognized as a tulku.
:applause:
Sigh, yes. Makes sense. I wish I could stop being cynical.
I don’t think it’s cynical really.
We should be able to at the very least hold our own community accountable for hypocrisy and other shortcomings. I think it’s obvious that we’ve allowed nepotism to run wild within Tibetan Buddhist institutions. Calling it out isn’t cynical, it’s an honest assessment of how the 8 worldly concerns have infiltrated our communities.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

crazy-man
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by crazy-man » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:13 am

mind emanation: thugs kyi sprul-sku
speech emanation: gsung gi sprul-sku
body emanation: sku yi sprul-sku
qualities emanation: yon tan sprul-sku
activities emanation: phrin las sprul-sku
Usually a reincarnation has to be someone’s taking rebirth as a human being after previously passing away. Ordinary sentient beings generally cannot manifest an emanation before death (ma-dhey tulku), but superior Bodhisattvas, who can manifest themselves in hundreds or thousands of bodies simultaneously, can manifest an emanation before death. Within the Tibetan system of recognizing Tulkus there are emanations who belong to the same mind-stream as the predecessor, emanations who are connected to others through the power of karma and prayers, and emanations who come as a result of blessings and appointment.
https://www.dalailama.com/messages/reti ... ncarnation

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:29 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:02 am
... nepotism ...
Blink, blink. That’s ... a pretty hopeless word. Pretty difficult for practitioners doing their best in this 21st century not to throw the baby out w the bath water after “nepotism” ...
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

Josef
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Josef » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:44 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:29 am
Josef wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:02 am
... nepotism ...
Blink, blink. That’s ... a pretty hopeless word. Pretty difficult for practitioners doing their best in this 21st century not to throw the baby out w the bath water after “nepotism” ...
It’s fitting though.
I recognize that difficulty.
We’re trying to do something very difficult.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:51 am

This discussion reminds me of a passage from "The Guru Drinks Bourbon?":
NEPOTISM

I once asked David Noodle what he thought about the book Blazing Splendor, and he said, “Oh, that story of Tibetan nepotism?” He may have been joking, but it’s true: there is a lot of nepotism in Tibetan Buddhism.

Parents in many cultures arrange marriages for their children, making deals to pair their children off with the sons and daughters of wealthy families, and it’s like that now with the tulkus. The monasteries shamelessly try to find a boy who has been born into a rich, influential family. Tulkus are then groomed to make money and rule the administration. Nepotism comes into play as soon as the tulkus have been installed on the throne. If the tulkus don’t engage in the practice personally, their relatives will. Favoritism will hijack Buddhism in general and the tantric path specifically, and there will be breakage of samaya. The lama’s cousins, brothers, sisters, parents—all these people have so much say. They start steering the tulku and therefore the monastery and the lineage.

Of course, a truly devoted student would have devotion even toward the guru’s pet dog, so of course a family member would be treated well. But that is only after the student has analyzed and accepted the guru. By all means, if he’s a good teacher, follow him; just be aware that some lamas tend to have that weakness of nepotism. How much nepotism can you handle? All this has nothing to do with your spiritual path, which is supposed to take you to enlightenment. But if you are not careful, it can get entangled. So ideally, as Longchenpa said, a lama who seems to isolate himself from his relatives is quite good.

That said, sometimes you are better off acting like a bee sucking nectar from a flower: just receive the teaching and stay away from the politics.
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

Simon E.
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:14 am

Anyone who denies that there is nepotism in Tibetan Buddhism is either a newbie or naif.

As Shakyamuni said in a different context..'the unreal exists because the real exists.'

This should make us more discriminating. It should not make us despairing.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by PuerAzaelis » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:52 pm

Of course.

As everywhere.

The question is the extent.
And nobody in all of Oz. No Wizard that there is or was.

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Harimoo
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Harimoo » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:16 pm

By their money, some "fake" tulku helped more the dharma than true tertöns. Do you know the price the maintenance costs of a monastery ?

Simon E.
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:22 pm

Which begs the question whether monasteries have a purpose still.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Motova
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Motova » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:40 pm

Harimoo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:16 pm
By their money, some "fake" tulku helped more the dharma than true tertöns. Do you know the price the maintenance costs of a monastery ?
Monasteries don't maintain Dharma transmission, realized beings do.

Inauthentic practitioners destroy Dharma transmission with their dirty money.

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conebeckham
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by conebeckham » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:58 pm

Motova wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:40 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:16 pm
By their money, some "fake" tulku helped more the dharma than true tertöns. Do you know the price the maintenance costs of a monastery ?
Monasteries don't maintain Dharma transmission, realized beings do.

Inauthentic practitioners destroy Dharma transmission with their dirty money.
I prefer a more nuanced view, personally.
Not sure how many of you have spent time in Monasteries in Tibetan cultural areas (or anywhere else, for that matter), but monasteries perform useful functions, on both a mundane level, and in terms of maintaining Dharma transmission.

With regard to the tulku tradition, as well, these discussions of nepotism could be argued to stem from Non-Monastic lineages, those that "went underground" when monastic culture was persecuted.

I am not saying there is not corruption. I just tire of the strident, extreme "revolutionary" tone of modern Buddhist voices.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Simon E.
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Re: Types of emanations

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:44 pm

Raising the question does not imply one fixed answer Cone..

'What are the purposes of Tibetan Monasteries in the post Invasion era' ?
May convey more skillfully what I meant. Particularly as they are largely now divorced from the feudal society in which they functioned.
"Any major dude with half a heart
Will surely tell you my friend,
Any minor world that breaks apart
Can fall together again.
Any major dude will tell you."

Steely Dan.

Motova
Posts: 556
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Types of emanations

Post by Motova » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:52 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:58 pm
Motova wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:40 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:16 pm
By their money, some "fake" tulku helped more the dharma than true tertöns. Do you know the price the maintenance costs of a monastery ?
Monasteries don't maintain Dharma transmission, realized beings do.

Inauthentic practitioners destroy Dharma transmission with their dirty money.
I prefer a more nuanced view, personally.
Not sure how many of you have spent time in Monasteries in Tibetan cultural areas (or anywhere else, for that matter), but monasteries perform useful functions, on both a mundane level, and in terms of maintaining Dharma transmission.

With regard to the tulku tradition, as well, these discussions of nepotism could be argued to stem from Non-Monastic lineages, those that "went underground" when monastic culture was persecuted.

I am not saying there is not corruption. I just tire of the strident, extreme "revolutionary" tone of modern Buddhist voices.
Fair enough, I admit I've spent next to no time with Tibetans.

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