Rabbit's Horns

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Lukeinaz
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Rabbit's Horns

Post by Lukeinaz » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:38 pm

I have always enjoyed this analogy and have noticed subtle and distinct differences in understanding within the different traditions.

I thought a collection of these would be a cool idea for a thread.

The most recent one I have came across:

..."conclusively decide that this so-called I is totally beyond a place of departure or any being who might leave. Just like an optical illusion, it only appears to exist. Describing it is no different than describing a rabbit’s horns."

-Dudjom Lingpa
Staying here without discomfort,
I am at ease and free from worries,
In a state of joyful mind.
Are you well yourself, my dear mother?
-Nyoshul Rinpoche

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Berry
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Berry » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:52 pm

From Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche:

In Buddhist scriptures, the analogy of horns of a rabbit are presented to describe our illusory mode of perceiving the world and being within. If rabbits have no horns, investigating how long a rabbit can have horns is rather foolish. Understanding that ultimately nothing can arise, it is conclusive that nothing abides or ceases. All appearances are mere appearances that do occur but have no solid, self-existing reality of their own. Since nothing abides, nothing can arise, nor can things be stopped from arising when causes and conditions prevail. Ultimately, everything is beyond conceptuality, the meaning of shunyata, the ultimate truth that is the ground for the relative truth of being and becoming.

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/Open% ... ndoor1.htm

:meditate:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

Tlalok
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Tlalok » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:41 pm


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Lukeinaz
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Lukeinaz » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:45 pm

From the Gelug POV:

“The horns of a rabbit do not inherently exist because they do not exist at all. The mere realization of their non-existence reveals that the horns of a rabbit do not inherently exist; therefore, the non-inherent existence of the horns of a rabbit is not an emptiness. An emptiness is not understood through realizing the mere non-existence of an object; it is known through comprehending in an existent object the absence of the quality of inherent or objective existence.”



-JH
Staying here without discomfort,
I am at ease and free from worries,
In a state of joyful mind.
Are you well yourself, my dear mother?
-Nyoshul Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:23 pm

And yet they do exist, as an object of the mind sense organ. That's how the "self" exists too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Aryjna » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:23 pm
And yet they do exist, as an object of the mind sense organ. That's how the "self" exists too.
The consciousnesses and their objects do not exist either according to the madhyamaka.

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:23 pm
And yet they do exist, as an object of the mind sense organ. That's how the "self" exists too.
The consciousnesses and their objects do not exist either according to the madhyamaka.
I dare you to find a source that states this.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Aryjna » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:56 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:49 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:23 pm
And yet they do exist, as an object of the mind sense organ. That's how the "self" exists too.
The consciousnesses and their objects do not exist either according to the madhyamaka.
I dare you to find a source that says this.
I was just reading the ninth chapter of the Bodhicaryavatara again and this is quite clear, unless I am missing something.

For example:
(104) If the cognition (of something) were prior to what it cognized,
Then what’s it to be aimed at for its arising (to occur)?
And if a cognition were simultaneous with what it cognized,
(Still,) what’s it to be aimed at for its arising (to occur)?
(105) Yet, if it occurred after what it cognized,
Then from what did the cognition (of it) arise?
Similarly, it can’t be determined that there’s
A (truly existent) arising of any phenomenon.

This includes the mind and mental phenomena of course.

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:01 am

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 am
A (truly existent) arising of any phenomenon.
;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Aryjna » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:01 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:00 am
A (truly existent) arising of any phenomenon.
;)
:D That is true for everything anyway, including the rabbit's horns. The point is that the idea of the rabbit's horns in someone's mind does not exist as much as the actual rabbit's horns do not exist.

krodha
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by krodha » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:46 am

Just as the horns on rabbits' heads,
Do not exist except in the imagination,
Phenomena are all precisely like that,
Merely imagined, having no existence.
- Dharmadhātustava

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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by MalaBeads » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:43 am

krodha wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:46 am
Just as the horns on rabbits' heads,
Do not exist except in the imagination,
Phenomena are all precisely like that,
Merely imagined, having no existence.
- Dharmadhātustava

So many things are "merely imagined."

I have been wanting to bring up the topic of imagination in tantra in any case. Imagine that.
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 am

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am
:D That is true for everything anyway...
It is not true for the unconditioned.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Aryjna » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:29 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am
:D That is true for everything anyway...
It is not true for the unconditioned.
I haven't read any texts where this is discussed so far, i think maybe the Uttaratantra has something on the subject, planning to read it later.

krodha
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by krodha » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:44 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am
:D That is true for everything anyway...
It is not true for the unconditioned.
Do you mean to suggest there is an "unconditioned" that possesses some sort of existence?

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:45 pm

krodha wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:44 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am
:D That is true for everything anyway...
It is not true for the unconditioned.
Do you mean to suggest there is an "unconditioned" that possesses some sort of existence?
Nirvana is unconditioned, right? Would it be correct to say that it does not exist?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by krodha » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:45 pm
krodha wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:44 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:15 am
It is not true for the unconditioned.
Do you mean to suggest there is an "unconditioned" that possesses some sort of existence?
Nirvana is unconditioned, right? Would it be correct to say that it does not exist?
Yes it would be correct to say it does not exist.

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Vasana
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Vasana » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:35 pm

Tip-toeing through the two truths train.
"The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –
As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,
May I truly practice the sublime teachings."
- Dudjom Rinpoche

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Berry
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Berry » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:35 pm

.

More about rabbit's horns....


The apparent images of existence and peace in this dream drama are apparitions of one’s mind alone—nothing else.
The essence of mind itself is beyond what is to be realized
and the act of realization.
The hair of the tortoise covered the lotus of the sky.
The sound of the echo called to the moon in water.
The horns of the rabbit killed the son of the barren woman.
I tricked myself before with pointless confusion.
Mind that can’t be gazed upon—
I’ve gazed upon now.
The truth that can’t be seen—
I’ve seen.
How to express what can’t be expressed in words?
Kye Ho!
Now practice is over.
Kye!"

https://thuptendhargyeychoeling.weebly. ... the-rabbit

:meditate:
Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

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Grigoris
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Re: Rabbit's Horns

Post by Grigoris » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:00 pm

krodha wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:44 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 3:45 pm
krodha wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:44 am

Do you mean to suggest there is an "unconditioned" that possesses some sort of existence?
Nirvana is unconditioned, right? Would it be correct to say that it does not exist?
Yes it would be correct to say it does not exist.
Not according to Madhyamaka.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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